Gay from nature, not nuture

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by ashura, Jun 17, 2008.

  1. ashura the Old Right Registered Senior Member

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    S.A.M.: So it's something like where we (in the west) don't necessarily consider male prisoners who rape other male prisoners to be homosexual?

    EDIT: If that's the case, it doesn't really address anything. Using the term homosexuality is just giving a name to something that exists. Wouldn't a homosexual in the US still be a homosexual in say Egypt?

    Under my not-backed-by-anything assumption at the time, yes. Similar to how under different circumstances, you would be attracted more towards blondes, or redheads, or asians, etc.
     
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  3. John99 Banned Banned

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    A real homosexual, not someone who is confused about their sexuality, knows pretty much during childhood. And there is no way to change it. Some may think that people turn gay or turn heterosexual but that is just false.
     
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  5. ashura the Old Right Registered Senior Member

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    Like I said, it's just an assumption I held at the time in the absence of any compelling argument for either the nature or the nurture argument. And is a homosexual who was once confused about his or her sexuality but is now a firm homosexual not, in your opinion, a "real" homosexual?
     
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  7. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    SAM's attitude sort of puts Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's comment about there being no homosexuals in Iran in context. He says that because he doesn't believe homosexuality exists, just like SAM. He simply see's some perverts who engage in unnatural acts, contrary to Islamic Law. They're not homosexual, because homosexuals don't exist. They're just men who like to engage in unnatural sexual practices.
     
  8. John99 Banned Banned

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    I would say yes, absolutely. It is really a crap shoot with heterosexuality having the higher odds. A lot like having red hair, just born a certain way.
     
  9. CharonZ Registered Senior Member

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    By chance a while back I read two papers suggesting a certain advantage of homosexuality. In one study (which was validated by another group) it was found that (human) female relatives of homosexual males possessed a higher fecundity than those of a heterosexual male. So the allele(s) resulting in homosexuality in male might increase fecundity in female and thus might provide an increase in fitness.
    Another that paper I only remember vaguely suggested that homosexual individuals might help raising siblings and their children but I am cannot recall any details on the math behind it.
     
  10. River Ape Valued Senior Member

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    If homosexuality is genetic, could someone explain to me why, in England, is it so much more common among people who have attended so-called "Public Schools" (i.e. private boarding schools for the offspring of the monied classes).

    Does anyone have an explanation why homosexuality is also much more common among the sorts of prancingly obnoxiously exhibitionists who are attracted to showbiz? Why would there be a correlation?
     
  11. John99 Banned Banned

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    Usually they are very creative.
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So how do you define homosexuality?

    Do these qualify? Or not?

     
  13. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    MadAnthonyWayne:

    Good points. But why would it be so common? 10 percent of the population is supposedly gay (a number I thought unsubstantiated for a long time but which is commonly bandied about). No sort of genetic disorder that is brought about through such embryonic flaws is nearly as common.

    However, let us also address the historic trends, too. We know from history that the supposed genetic determinism of homosexuality is unsubstantiated. There has been few exclusive homosexuals throughout history. Bisexuality amongst men, and heterosexuality amongst both sexes have predominated. As such, unless there is an enviromental cause that is recent (such as electricity or high enviromental pollution) that is relatively recent (100-200 years) which has caused the genetic abnormality of homosexuality (and even that would have to account for the past or even enduring bisexuality of most homosexuals) to emerge, we'd have to conclude that again...gay determinism is false.
     
  14. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Ashura:

    To put it bluntly: You are a queer if you rape a man in prison.

    How the fuck can you think otherwise?

    If you initiate sodomy with a man, you are gay.
     
  15. ashura the Old Right Registered Senior Member

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    I personally agree James, but as we can see with S.A.M., it's not necessarily a concept that translates acorss cultures. With the prison issue, it becomes less about someone being a homosexual and more about the dominant-weak relationship involved in a rape. My personal opinion, those who would purposefully choose to have sex with a member of their own gender without coercion of any sort are homosexual. Same sentence but applied to opposite gender, heterosexual. Same, but with both, bisexual. In the issue of homosexual rape, the rapist is definitely either homosexual or bisexual, but the victim isn't necessarily either.

    S.A.M., I'll take on your examples individually:

    Choosing to have sex with another member of the same sex without being coerced makes you a homosexual, regardless of any affection.

    What does 'otherwise live heterosexual lives' mean? That they have sexual relations with women too? Bisexual. It doesn't matter how close or far the sexual preference is from the core of identity.

    Answered in my rape talk above.

    This I have no answer to. Let me read up a bit about hijras and the multi-gender phenomena. I've read about the concept in general before but didn't pay that much attention.

    From the most magnificent wiki:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation
     
  16. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    If a gay man has sex with a women is he hetero?
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    What about a man who has sex with a woman and a chicken or a bicycle? Or a dog who has sex with his chew toy? Or a woman who has a sex change operation to a man and has sex with a woman but also gets pregnant because she still has her uterus?

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  18. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    ashura actually your wrong about that. It IS more complicated than simply "if you have sex with someone of the same sex your gay"

    For instace pediophila. Pedophiles tend to rape members of there own sex (ie boys are MUCH more likly to be victoms of abuse than girls are) and as the offenders are almost always men this has been used by the bigots to sugest that gays are pedifiles. However its just wrong. Pediphiles dont chose there victoms because they are sexual atracted to males, in fact most pediphiles are hedrosexual males, they also tend to have female partners (at the same time) and still abuse male children.

    As for the sex in prision thing would you say that a women who has sex with another women is always homosexual?

    Futher more most porn stars who have sex with members of there own sex actually have no atraction to there own sex. They do it simply for the money (as do most prositutes).
     
  19. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    I've heard the 10% figure, but I've also heard that that's a gross overestimation and the real number is more like 1%. Down's syndrome accounts for 1 in 700 live births. It accounts for a lot more conceptions, but many of them spontaneously abort (miscarry). So 1% (if that's the correct figure) wouldn't be unheard of since it's unlikely that homosexual fetuses would miscarry.

    Also, consider refractive error. About 20% of the population is near sighted, and that is known to have a strong genetic component.
    Let's not forget that for much of history homosexuals stayed "in the closet", so their numbers were likely greatly underestimated in times past.
     
  20. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    MadAnthonyWayne:

    We need accurate, non-biased, population data.

    One of the issues at play with eye defects is that they tend to emerge as the lifespan goes far beyond the natural human lifespan of 20-30 years. As such, there'd have been few instanecs where the genetic flaw could be selected against.

    Gays, however, would have a problem from puberty onward.

    Even if we assume that staying "in the closet" was common, it does not follow that exclusive homosexuality was more common where we have plenty of instances of bisexuality where homosexual sex was common in society. Sam, I believe, referenced the famous Arabic saying about women are for the home, boys are for pleasure. China, Japan, India, Greece, and Rome all had substantial pederastic and adult homosexual sex, but few men ever retained the identity of exclusivity and married and had children. Often their male lovers were kept alongside being married and having a family.

    That and, as I have noted, most homosexuals today have had sex with someone of the opposite sex. This should immediatly refute the idea of genetic determinism for exclusive homosexuality. However, it would promote at least a potential genetic component to bisexual tendencies.
     
  21. CutsieMarie89 Zen Registered Senior Member

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    There is a difference between being homosexual and being involved in a homosexual act. Someone who is homosexual is sexually attracted to their own sex, regardless of who they have sex with. Just because someone is involved in a homosexual act does not make them automatically a homosexual. I think homosexuality might have a minor genetic component in some people. Some studies have shown that it can run in families, meaning a child might be gay if their uncle was gay, but this evidence is still in the elementary stages and is rather weak. Many studies show that homosexuality might be caused by abnormal conditions in utero, similar to enviromentally caused ADHD or autism. The brain of a fetus is very vunerable to chemicals and in far from perfect conditions abnormal growth patterns can develop. So I don't see a problem with homosexuality coming from nature and not nurture. :shrug:
     
  22. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Interesting theory, somewhat akin to what Madanthony said..
     
  23. new idea

    it is my personal theory that it neither nurture nor nature but the process of human reasoning on a personal subconcious level

    just for kicks a hypothetical situation, as an infant he or she discovers affections and love by observing others without fully comprehending what it is. on a side note once an infant learns something they imediately want to use it. so the infant decides that they should have affections for other too starting off with the basics mom dad brother sister grandma grandpa. normaly people who he or she can trust. once an infant is shown to others in a formal setting, the brains subconconcience takes over and starts studying everything more or less looking for the traits of things he/she can trust after that you just dont know whats going to happen

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    this is more or less based on the theory that at conception everything has to be learned including how to see how think how process thought how to remember and how to move simple muscles

    please feel free to completely smash my theory, but if your going to dont be subtle
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2008

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