Galaxies going faster than light ? [v.2]

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by river, Sep 10, 2016.

1. The GodValued Senior Member

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Ruler shrinks and everything remains in place. This will further guarantee 200 more pages for this thread.

3. The GodValued Senior Member

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But the space between them does not know that. You guys are pushing popo, in fact as I said all this expansion business is less than popo...pseudo.

5. DaveC426913Valued Senior Member

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Answered, as a logical extension of post 191.

Disparaging labels and arguments by incredulity are not substitutes for reasoned discourse.

7. The GodValued Senior Member

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Believing expansion of universe is incredulity.

GR talks of spacetime expansion not of space. Any change in distance between object is always causal and calls for force. The concept of metric expansion, which is force free, is just mathematics.

Yes, red shift is explained by this, but we will have to search for more realistic solution not some metric solution. Will be done if not by me then by someone else, very soon, very very soon.

8. DaveC426913Valued Senior Member

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The math in the theory backs it up. That's kind of the opposite of incredulity.

Fortunately, science is not a wish-based discipline.

Anyway, you've reggressed to a state of simply demanding that you're right, so unless and until someone come up with something that has teeth, the discussion stands as conforming with mainstream until shown (not supposed) otherwise.

Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
9. The GodValued Senior Member

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My position was made very clear in the starting itself, that in reality there is nothing like expansion of universe or photon stretching as envisaged. None could answer a simple question that GW, a part of GR, can create ripple in bound systems but expansion cannot take place. You could not even figure out the possibility of instability of orbital motion under expansion.

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Yes, but not "void" enough to allow spacetime expansion:
No, as you are being repeatedly told expansion of the universe reigns supreme on scales larger than small clusters of galaxies etc. Within such small clusters gravity is strong enough to bind the cluster and give individual galaxies a Peculiar velocity large enough to overcome the smaller velocity of the Hubble flow: [Obviously understanding this observation conflicts with your agenda and fabricated fairy tale.]
Not at all: That's just part of your fabricated nonsense.

The spacetime surrounding Earth on both sides, out to and including the objects are gravitationally bound to Earth. Think of gravity as the warping curvature of spacetime: Quite a novel idea don't you think?

[Again simply GR]

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Your position is one that is well known, and as usual defies all observational data we have and of course GR and is the reason your stated position rests mostly in the fringes.
Again, over larger scales the Universe/spacetime is expanding and accelerating in that expansion rate, while smaller, more dense local regions are decoupled from the expansion rate.
Firstly all your questions have been answer despite your again fabricated claims otherwise. Secondly this forum is not the be all and end all of scientific scrutiny as you well know, and as we all know is open to any Tom, Dick and Harry to promote any unsupported fairy tale that their little heart desires. Thirdly if you have any evidence to support your claims then submit them professionally for peer review.
We all wait anxiously for the outcome.

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Interesting take on the situation.
Generally though it is thought that gravity will and should have merged our local group by then.
Or are you promoting a "Big Rip" scenario some trillions and trillions and trillions of years into the future, where [if I'm reading you correctly] the acceleration in the expansion rate will continue unhindered, and even local groups will be ripped apart, solar systems ripped apart, so overcoming gravity, and even the strong nuclear, weak and EMF's eventually overcome by the acceleration in the expansion rate and we would all be ripped apart.
Observations of course show the Universe to be flat within very small ranges of tolerances and while the evidence for DE is observed [the acceleration] we really don't know how much this DE would continue.
It seems there are a few predictable long term fate of the universe scenarios.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe

http://hubblesite.org/hubble_discoveries/dark_energy/de-fate_of_the_universe.php

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river knows that, but as usual river is unable to ever admit he is wrong, irrespective of how obviously wrong he is. river also supports the long defunct Electric/Plasma universe model that we have often crossed swords over.

14. DaeconKiwi fruitValued Senior Member

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The God, if you think it's a "bad" explanation, then obviously you must have a different explanation for the observational evidence.

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He hasn't got one. He prefers a "totally unknown quantity" so that he can imply his "god of the gaps".

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And that Ladies and Gentlemen is the crux of the matter, despite the willful denial of both the god and river.

17. SchmelzerValued Senior Member

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Maybe, I have not cared. The question would be why should it merge them at all? The Solar system is quite stable over a long time. So, gravitational configurations stable over long times are obviously possible.
If there is really an acceleration which is visible now, and if it is described by Einstein's cosmological constant, then this would be unavoidable. No reason to promote it, and I don't. But this would be the mainstream prediction. And if I don't mention the theory which I use, I mean the mainstream theory.

Not sure if this are "trillions and trillions" of years (again, not cared). The expansion would be exponential. And that means that one needs more time for this than the universe exists, but not that much more. But, ok, a factor 100 is not unreasonable, and this would be already trillions.

The Wiki is correct about a rather old state of the mainstream opinion, before acceleration was accepted mainstream. For $\Lambda>0$, which is actually the mainstream opinion, everything else like the curvature becomes irrelevant.

What I would promote is an alternative, (but don't worry, a published one) proposed by Wiltshire, the timescape scenario. In this approach, the accelerated expansion is simply an error of the homogeneous FLRW approach. One has to take into account that there are now big voids, that light is differently redshifted inside the voids, and that we are not in a void. Essentially, the inner parts of the voids expand in a faster way, but if we ignore this, and use a homogeneous model, these differences will be misinterpreted as an accelerated expansion. If we would sit in the center of a void, and evaluate it similarly homogeneously, it would look decelerating.

The funny thing is that there are now published papers which compare above scenarios. They are not decisive. But nobody questions the computations themselves. This is very strange. Given that taking into account inhomogeneity would lead to a fake acceleration, it should be already clear after this that pure FLRW is inappropriate to evaluate the question if the expansion is accelerating. What one would have to do to evaluate $\Lambda$ would be to consider a $\Lambda$CDM inhomogeneously to identify its size and the error bars. To continue to consider $\Lambda$CDM in the homogeneous FLRW ansatz is, once it has been found out by computations that inhomogeneity has some effects, already bad science.

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Puzzling to say the least.
They are gravitationally bound?
Sure, that's why I did say over "trillions and trillions of years"....certainly not
100% stable, and of course it's simply a result of observation [of our local group]

19. James RJust this guy, you know?Staff Member

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Moderator note:

river has been warned for trolling this thread.

He has deliberately and repeatedly ignored information that has been presented to him time and again saying that the faster-than-light recession of galaxies is not a violation of the theory of relativity. He has now received 3 separate official warnings for trolling in this way.

As a result of accumulated warning points, river is now banned for 1 day from sciforums.