Gadhafi is dead.

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Shadow1, Oct 20, 2011.

  1. Yazata Valued Senior Member

    I'm not sure where all this bitterness about Libyan oil is coming from. To hear Sciforums tell it, the idea of Libya selling oil to Western countries is exploitation, colonialism, invasion, or who knows what other terrible evil. (Presumably, selling it to China would be different.)

    The thing is, pumping and selling oil is a mutually advantageous relationship, both for the seller and for the buyer.

    Libya doesn't have a lot of use for nasty black sludge in the ground. It was useless waste material back in the days when people were more interested in locating water in the desert.

    But there are foreigners, all over the world and not just in the West, who have all kinds of uses for the oil and are willing to pay big money for it. And the Libyans, in turn, can use those massive profits to buy goods and services that they do want. (Or alternatively, it can swell corrupt Libyan officials' off-shore bank accounts.)

    Selling oil is good for the people who buy the oil. It's also good for the Libyans who sell it, provided that the profits are spent wisely.

    The point is, Libya wants to sell oil. They hope to get their exports back up as soon as the damage to the facilities is put right. It's in their interest.

    Italy has traditionally been the largest purchaser of Libyan oil, and that's unlikely to change. Germany buys a lot. France and Britain might get some new contracts. The United States has never been a very large purchaser of Libyan oil and I don't expect us to go rushing in now. It's possible, but I doubt it.

    Oil's fungible, so Libya's exporting into the world market would help us indirectly by reducing competition in the markets that we do buy from and thus by keeping world prices down.

    The new Libyan leaders have talked about punishing countries that didn't support their struggle by not favoring them in new export contracts, but I don't know if that will really happen. It's almost inevitable that China will continue to be an active purchaser of Libyan oil.

    This thread has lots of talk about the evil West dominating and exploiting Libya. That's just internet knee-jerk in my opinion.

    Post-Gadhafi Libya is probably going to be a disorderly and rather unpleasant and anarchical place for some time to come, as various Libyan factions contend for the future of their country. My guess is that the West, particularly the Europeans who are most involved with the place, will keep turbulent Libya at arm's-length, apart from buying oil from them and sponsoring some feel-good aid projects there. If the Libyans have any eventual complaints about how the West treats them, it might be that not enough was done to help them.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2011
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  3. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    Just generally.
    Do people feel more optimistic about the future?
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  5. Nobody Suspended Indefinitely Registered Senior Member

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  7. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Arab Sproing

    Can't say I'm unhappy to see the back of Ghaddafi/Quaddafi/Kaddafy/Kadafi.

    Then again...


    Should be interesting to see how this one turns out, nicht wahr?
  8. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member


    They didnt say they are going to apply sharia, but they said that the laws are based on sharia (including banning polygamy)
    That's what I know.
  9. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member


    Generally yes, I guess.
  10. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

  11. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

    Hmm. So thus, given that notion, one could potentially attach the AQ tag to all and sundry and execute at will.
    As long as there is due process.
    And why not out of respect for the law? Let both sides be heard, and given a chance at being on the record.
    Thug or not - his guilt would only be beyond doubt if given a fair hearing and trail. This smacks of Robespierre-ism.
    One would hope so.
    I would be relieved if Libya can move on from this as a united polity and draw up a meaningful constitution protecting democracy and human rights. Given the state of the infrastructure and casualties, I have my serious doubts, time will tell.
  12. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

    A leader who overthrew a corrupt monarchy, modernized the country, won the highest HDI in Africa, and applied a direct democracy system.

    Compared with the US...

    Human Rights Record of United States in 2010

    I suppose Qaddafi had to die, any trial at the World Court would of ended with an embarrassing Not Guilty verdict.
  13. Bells Staff Member

    You do realise that report is what Libya presented, correct?

    Because if it was as they claim in their report on themselves to the UN, then the people would not have been baying for his blood. He and the country he led were known for gross human rights abuses.

    As for corruption.. The man was corrupt, awarded himself half the awards he was given and his direct democracy system is one where only he could be deemed the leader, hardly democratic.
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Only to replace it by another corrupt monarchy with himself as monarch.
  15. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    Where is Saif al-Islam Gaddafi?
    Will he be allowed to take part in the Democratic elections?
  16. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member


    No way!
    EVEN if he did, do you think people will vote for him?
  17. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    He's right about not firing in the air, that's just stupid.
  18. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

    You would be surprised at how many people get shot by a stray bullet . You shoot it in the air and it comes back down
  19. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

  20. Bells Staff Member

    One has to wonder at how democratic the system will be when the forces who overthrew him somehow think it is acceptable to do what they did to him and still possibly try and pass themselves off as democratic:

    The video, which was shot on a mobile phone, is the most graphic footage yet of rebels sabagely beating the dictator after capturing him in sewer in his hometown of Sirte.

    To shouts of "Allah Akbar!", and with the sounds of assault rifle fire in the background, the rebels drag Gaddafi across a patch of wasteland and into a truck.

    The dictator is bleeding heavily from his head. A man then approaches Gaddafi from behind and stabs him.

    There is what seems to be a series of heavy blows and Gaddafi falls to the ground. A man then dangles an automatic weapon over Gaddafi’s head and appears to fires several rounds.

    But Gaddafi is still alive and in deep distress as the mob drags him again, in what may become a damaging PR moment for the otherwise celebrated rebel forces.

    Gadaffi, now a confused and pitiful figure, bleeds more freely from his head wound and becomes increasingly limp. Another clip shows he is clearly still alive as he is thrown in the back of a truck.

    Some time after that, Gadaffi’s degradation is complete. He is lifeless and stripped of his clothes. It appears he has wounds to both his head and chest.

    On its website, the GlobalPost said:

    "A frame by frame analysis shows the rebel trying to insert some kind of stick or knife into Gaddafi's rear end. GlobalPost correspondent Tracey Shelton said there is some question as to whether the instrument was a knife from the end of a gun, which Libyans call a Bicketti, or a utilitiy tool known as a Becker Knife and Tool, which is popularly known as a BKT."


    Few people will mourn the man because he was himself a criminal and one who led his country through gross human rights abuses. But the brutality of his attack does not instill much confidence in the rebels who overthrew him. Because they have shown they are as capable of the same brutality that he was accused of throughout his reign as Libya's leader.

    "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"...
  21. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    The actions of some soldiers should not reflect the policies of any future state. They probably acted in anger and not on orders.
  22. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

    No, it was a report presented to Libya to answer.
    4. A list of questions prepared in advance by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Germany, Latvia, Norway, Slovenia, Sweden and the Netherlands was transmitted to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya through the troika. Those questions are available on the extranet of the universal periodic review.
    Baying for his blood odd considering the output of support the Libyan people gave him.
    One Million March in Support of Colonel Qaddafi While US Formally Recognizes Libya “Rebels” as New Gov’t, look at all the pictures, even ones of Western reporters, never made our news.
    Gaddaffi stepped down in 1977, Prime Ministers ran the country since.
    My God you are gullible James, mind you what I would I expect when you consider Australia rigged electoral system to be democratic. How you can accept information from the western media as accurate after the lies told over Iraq is beyond me.

    The Kingdom of Libya, from 1951 to 1969, was marked by a feudal regime, where Libya had a low literacy rate of 10%, a low life expectancy of 57 years, and 40% of the population lived in shanties, tents, or caves.[1] The history of Libya under Muammar al-Gaddafi, from 1969 to 2011, was marked by a new regime called jamahiriya ("state of the masses"), a direct democracy political system established by Muammar Gaddafi in 1977.[2] Gaddafi officially stepped down from power in 1977, but continued to hold a symbolic role within the country's governance until 2011.[3][4]

    Under Gaddafi's jamahiriya regime, the country's literacy rate rose to 90%, life expectancy rose to 77 years, equal rights were established for women and black people, employment opportunities were established for migrant workers, and welfare systems were introduced that allowed access to free education, free healthcare, and financial assistance for housing. The Great Manmade River was also built to allow free access to fresh water across large parts of the country.[1] In addition, financial support was provided for university scholarships and employment programs,[5] while the nation as a whole was largely debt-free.[6] As a result, Libya's Human Development Index in 2010 was the highest in Africa and greater than that of Saudi Arabia.

    Seems to me Gaddaffi was a good leader who dared nationalize foreign assets, thereby becoming another Castro. He was attacked by NATO and murdered in Cold Blood.
  23. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

    Libya - Amnesty International Report 2010

    The Amnesty 2010 report shows that although there are problems with freedom of expression no significant "butchering" of Libyans happened in that year. In other words there was no ongoing pattern of the type one might expect from a really brutal regime.

    The Libyan people had no choice in the murder of Qaddafi or the theft of their country.The western bankers were behind this and don't care a damn about the Libyan people. I expect the civil war to regain their freedom from NATO and Obama will begin shortly.

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