Friends getting religious

SAM said:
Maybe if you started by asking, rather than assuming, whether everything in the universe has "a purpose" - - -
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Try it. See how much it increases your understanding of the universe to assume that things happen for no reason.
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What is the connection between "reason" and "purpose"? You seem to be interchanging what are in this context diametrically opposed concepts.

I enjoy a dramatic increase in understanding of the local trees, for example, from clearly understanding that they are not designed according to some purpose. It's a central insight of Darwinian evolutionary theory, and the enlightenments attendant upon it are well worth the effort of comprehension involved.
 
iceaura said:
What is the connection between "reason" and "purpose"? You seem to be interchanging what are in this context diametrically opposed concepts.
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How are they diametrically opposed in what context? When is a reason for being without purpose? And how does that expand your understanding of the universe? You could give me an example from nature.
 
SAM said:
How are they diametrically opposed in what context?
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In the context of the reasons trees are as they are, one central insight is that "purpose" is not involved - must be deliberately excluded, by most people, to prevent their usual way of thinking from fogging their comprehension. If you attempt to assign purpose(s) to a tree, your comprehension of important reasons will suffer.
SAM said:
When is a reason for being without purpose?
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What entity, specifically, recognizes any "reason for being" of a tree? A hill? Certainly not the tree, or the hill. Clue.
 
What entity, specifically, recognizes any "reason for being" of a tree? A hill? Certainly not the tree, or the hill. Clue.
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Are you saying there is no reason for being of a tree? Would you say the elimination of all trees would have no consequences?

Can you understand a tree [or anything else] if you ignore its reason for being, or its purpose?
 
SAM said:
Are you saying there is no reason for being of a tree? Would you say the elimination of all trees would have no consequences?
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Are you saying the reason for being of a tree is the prevention of those consequences?

Does the tree know that? Would it even experience those consequences?
 
iceaura said:
Are you saying the reason for being of a tree is the prevention of those consequences?

Does the tree know that? Would it even experience those consequences?
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Does it need to know or even experience those consequences for them to be real?

How would you study a tree?
 
Yeah it says innate tendency or intuition. What is that, scientifically?
 
S.A.M. said:
Yeah it says innate tendency or intuition. What is that, scientifically?
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Why did you pick that one ?

- an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species.

- An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli.

- Specif., the natural, unreasoning, impulse by which an animal is guided to the performance of any action, without of improvement in the method.

- a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason.

- behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level.

- An inherited tendency of an organism to behave in a certain way, usually in reaction to its environment and for the purpose of fulfilling a specific need. The development and performance of instinctive behavior does not depend upon the specific details of an individual's learning experiences. Instead, instinctive behavior develops in the same way for all individuals of the same species or of the same sex of a species. For example, birds will build the form of nest typical of their species although they may never have seen such a nest being built before. Some butterfly species undertake long migrations to wintering grounds that they have never seen. Behavior in animals often reflects the influence of a combination of instinct and learning. The basic song pattern of many bird species is inherited, but it is often refined by learning from other members of the species. Dogs that naturally seek to gather animals such as sheep or cattle into a group are said to have a herding instinct, but the effective use of this instinct by the dog also requires learning on the dog's part. Instinct, as opposed to reflex, is usually used of inherited behavior patterns that are more complex or sometimes involve a degree of interaction with learning processes.
 
I summarised all of the above. Its innate tendency or intuition.

How do you test it, empirically?
 
Sure, I'm trying to understand how atheists understand stuff like instinct.

So far, what I have is that they use a dictionary and consider that its something that does not require thinking, but is innate [whatever that means- genetic memory?]
 
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