# Freezing Humans

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by kmguru, Jul 23, 2001.

1. ### ProtoManXIRegistered Member

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haha the borg, yeah let me tell ya, I'll just broadcast a message to the continuim and tell the borg I wish to be assimilated, I'm sure they would get it and come right down and assimilate me...

What is telomerase enzyme.. just curious.. it sounds neat.. latta..

3. ### kmguruStaff Member

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Do a search on Google, you will get it...it is fun too...

5. ### Doane McTorkRegistered Senior Member

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Nitrogen encasement and permeation could help. An inert gas that won't allow bacteria to eat flesh.

A big problem with cryotech is the thawing event. It has to be done very quickly or the living tissue begins to decay while the frozen flesh becomes irreversibly nerve damaged. If a person was very thin when on death door, it would help. And make thee hyperventilate with an inert gas just before # is up. Maybe helped along with life support machines until completely saturated with non-oxygen.

Crickets and frogs and lightning bugs reanimate partly because they are so small and thaw quickly.

7. ### nanokRegistered Senior Member

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believe it or not I AM a client for alcor, when I die my life insurance will go to alcor so it can pay the  it costs to get frozen,

it's a gamble but I'm willing to take it, some of my friends ask me why I'm doing it, but for me I don't see any reason not to.......

8. ### kmguruStaff Member

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May be one could use microwave to thaw quickly... anyone to do a test on a pig or cow?

9. ### CrisIn search of ImmortalityValued Senior Member

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Nanok,

Good for you. I have to do the same thing shortly as well.

What scheme have you requested? Whole body, head, or just the brain? How close are you to an Alcor center? I understand that if you cannot undergo at least the first stages of freezing within 30 minutes of death then deterioration of your body may be so great that there won’t be much point doing the remaining processes.

The logic for freezing is very simple: If you do nothing then you will cease to exist at some point. If you are frozen then at least you stand a chance no matter how small of future survival.

But I believe Alcor released a statement last year stating that they are adopting the new process that involves extremely rapid freezing, known as vitrification. The effect is very much like the effect that we see of prehistoric mosquitoes that have been perfectly preserved in amber (sap from a tree).

The very rapid process pretty much removes the formation of water crystals that occur during slower freezing and which cause so much cell damage.

The thawing process is clearly the most dangerous stage since ice crystals may well form and cause the damage that should be avoided.

From my perspective I only plan to have my brain vitrified and I hope to go through a future upload process that will likely require that my brain be sliced very finely, while in a solid vitrified form, and the information scanned digitally. Or in other words the issues of thawing will not be applicable.

I look forward to ultimately shedding any vestiges of my biological form.

Cris

10. ### kmguruStaff Member

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There may be another way.

Two unique features of a human is the DNA and the memory. What if we extract the DNA which is easy to do today and the memory of a person.

Assume that DNA is like the operating system of the brain and the memory is the data (the total experience of the physical world). Combine the two, you get the whole person in a digital form.

What do you think?

11. ### CrisIn search of ImmortalityValued Senior Member

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Km,

I think the concept is good but the implementation poses some problems.

Human memory doesn’t seem to be conveniently located in a single easily identifiable spot. And things like emotions tend to be both chemical and electrical and again spread among different areas of the brain. All of these features do seem to be intertwined with and within neurons and the synapses.

I suspect that one would still have to perform a brain scan of some sort to extract such memories, and at present such techniques look as though they will be destructive.

But memories are not all that makes each of us unique. It is also the way our neurons have made their connections over time. In effect the way we process memories is unique to each individual. So we need both a copy of the processing algorithms as well as the data (memories+).

Without those unique processing features all uploads would function identically but would just have different memories.

But OK, where would DNA enter into the story? DNA is a static map of our characteristics from birth, it doesn’t reflect how the brain has grown and adapted over a lifetime. I see DNA as a set of guidelines for brain growth but doesn’t actually contain the resultant information.

I suspect an upload only requires a map of actual brain algorithms and memories and has no need for DNA.

But I’m open to more ideas on this. If there was a way to avoid freezing and death then I’m all for it.

Cris

12. ### kmguruStaff Member

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Hi Crisp:

Here are my ideas. Ofcourse they are hypothetical and we are talking about stuff that is 30 years away. So, my ideas will be like swiss cheese - lots of holes.

Armed with DNA, you can simulate growth of a person that provides a persons physical abilities, looks etc. If I clone you using your DNA, I will get an exact replica. The only missing part is the memory and adaptive algorithms that you mentioned. To solve that problem, all I have to do is extract your experiences in a time series from birth to whatever time period you set. You do not want to scan your brain after you had Alzheimers or any brain disease that loses your memories. So, you set up a time when your faculties are intact. Now, since we are talking about computer upload, all I have to do is to run the sensory inputs (the time series memory) through your DNA produced empty brain (the baby) and run the simulation at high speed (1000:1) to the time period you specified.

Wallah...you got your brain in a computer....and live in a virtual world happily ever after....

13. ### nanokRegistered Senior Member

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Cris, thats great to hear you could possibly get frozen with alcor as well.

And to answer your questions, the scheme will be full body suspension, only because I barely managed to get an insurance plan that would cover it. As for living near an Alcor center, I plan to move very close to a center sometime after I retire.

I have read about the process of vitrification, it sounds like the technology is getting better everyday......hopefully it will become even more rapid.

I also expect my body to eventually become entirely non-living and my memories uploaded into a computer for future existence......thats a scary thought.....

As for right-now, I'm just keeping up with all the latest cryo-freezing info on the internet.

14. ### CrisIn search of ImmortalityValued Senior Member

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nanok,

Awright pretty good.

Please post any news here as you find it.

When do you expect to retire?

Take care
Cris

15. ### ltcmmdrRegistered Senior Member

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I don't think you can freeze a person and then bringing them back to life. I don't think it's possible.

16. ### HeveneRegistered Senior Member

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Nothing is impossible, it seems to be so because of the limitation of the technology, just remember, assumptions limit possibilities.

17. ### kmguruStaff Member

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The reason freezing does not work today is because, the cells blow up due to ice crystals. Several fish specis can get frozen and in summer get thawed to go about their business. Their blood has glycol type chemicals that prevent ice crystals. Once we figure out the mechanism, all we have to do is turn on a gene than can pump out such chemicals when the body core gets to 40 F. Then you keep thet body at that temp for 6 hours or so until the blood is saturated with your own antifreeze.

I will not be surprised if the first one will be a human that has an artificial heart pump which starts the process.

18. ### CrisIn search of ImmortalityValued Senior Member

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km,

The problem of ice crystal formation is solved with the new vitrification process. Essentially freezing takes place so fast that ice crystals do not have time to form.

The issue will be with thawing. However, if uploading is the goal then a vitrified brain would be perfect for the destructive scanner process, e.g. taking very thin slices for very accurate scanning.

Cris

19. ### RickॐValued Senior Member

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err...Cris How about a little Non-destructive process like Gamma ray scanning,or may be MRI for uploading purposes.

bye!

20. ### CrisIn search of ImmortalityValued Senior Member

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zion

Nice idea, but current estimates show these technologies are unlikely to achieve the required resolution, at least not in the short term, or if they could then the intensity would be so high that you will fry the target material, i.e. you would still have a destructive result.

Remember with some 100 billion neurons, each with many thousands of dendrites, and then, many more trillions of synapses, and all with wide ranges of electrical variance, plus of course the hormonal and other messenger signals, … and we need perfect accuracy. The technologies you mention are currently thousands of times short of the required accuracy.

Also if you are trying to scan dynamic living tissue then you have the problem of not having a static target. If a cohesive thought is dispersed over many areas of the brain and your scan is not instantaneous then the result may simply be chaotic. Since an instantaneous scan with the required accuracy seems highly unlikely then one answer might be to freeze all brain activity during the scan. And that is something we would want to avoid if the process is meant to be non-destructive.

The best approach for the moment seems to be some form of very high powered electron microscope that can scan at high resolution at extremely small distances from the material and in a 2D framework – i.e. extremely thin bio slices. And where the bioactivity has been suspended.

I have the estimates buried in my email from MURG, I need to dig them out and give you the actual numbers.

Cris

21. ### kmguruStaff Member

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From www.lef.org

Whatever the source of cells, tissues and organs for transplantation turn out to be, there is an across-the-board need for improved methods of cryopreservation for storage. Current methods of freezing are quite poor for cells and tissues and completely inadequate for organs. The Life Extension Foundation is funding the development of a technology called vitrification at a private laboratory in Southern California, which allows for long-term cryopreservation of tissues and organs without the formation of damaging ice crystals. The cryobiologists at this laboratory have developed the world’s first synthetic ice-blockers and are close to the successful vitrification of rabbit kidneys. They have also targeted the heart and corneas (for eyes) in their vitrification research.

22. ### PedroRegistered Member

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Well guess wot everyone. Some of you might be aware but a few years ago a dog named "Miles" was put to sleep, put down whatever. It was killed and totally dead. No organs working and absolutly NO BRAIN ACTIVITY. Then Miles was frozen and a year or two later he was warmed up, given blood and now he is 100% normal living dog. Miles' brain is still fully functional even though it died. It has it's own memory fully intact and remembers names and other things from its "Past Life" and the first thing to go wrong in the brain is balance. Miles can balance on his hind legs with ease and has passed every test scientists can throw at him. You could try searching for something like "Miles the dog frozen revived" or something using a search engine. If i find a source on the internet I'll let you's know!

Pedro.

23. ### SpookedRegistered Member

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brain scanning

Just a thought.. if you have you're brain scanned at perfect resolution and run in a computer simulation (imagine the pc to do that!