Freezing Humans

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by kmguru, Jul 23, 2001.

  1. Hypnogog Registered Member

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    Hang on, is it viable to use something to stop the blood from freezing? Just thinking about that, it seems to me that the blood would pool in the lowest areas. The heart stops pumping, but the blood isn't frozen only turned into a semi-solid state, there would still be some motion. Over the years there would be rigor mortis.
    Blood pooling in tne muscles.
    I wonder what technology Zip-lock has with the anti-freezer burn storage bags?
     
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  3. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Yes freezing humans without damage is now possible.

    Most cryogenic systems now in place do use a system that results in the formation of small ice crystals in the cells. These aren’t too serious except in the brain, where the damage can be quite devastating. So it is currently very unclear what will happen to those who have already been cryogenically frozen using these older techniques, when they are eventually revived.

    One hope is that future technology will be sufficiently advanced that it will be able to repair, or supplant the cell damage.

    However, in the last year Allcor, the current world leader in cryogenics has developed a new technique known as vitrification. The preparation techniques are important but the freezing process is extremely rapid. The high speed is so fast that ice crystals do not have time to form. The result is a kind of solid frozen form that more resembles those ancient insects captured in amber. The process has been tested on frogs and they have been successfully unfrozen and returned to life.

    This process is now the official technique being adopted by Alcor for all new cryogenic clients. However there aren’t too many cryogenic establishments in the world. The best is probably in Arizona, and there is one a few miles from me here in Cupertino CA, and there are several in Europe. However, my local doesn’t do vitrification yet so I will be looking to move to Arizona in the near future.

    The key to successful cryogenics is to be treated within 30 minutes of brain death, after that, brain damage is increasingly likely. Since I am only interested in having my brain uploaded then I would only have my brain vitrified. The cost is currently around $15000, and there are other costs associated with future revival.

    The vitrification method and its very solid result is ideally suitable to the slicing process that is probably the most likely for brain scanning needed for the uploading process.

    Cris
     
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  5. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Re: A new body

    Ah Bebelina ,

    A lovely fairy story. Of souls and spirits there are many tales and myths, but for now they have no relevance except in the realm of fiction. But fantasies are fun, just be careful not to delude yourself that such things are true, unless you can prove to me otherwise.

    Cris
     
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  7. AnotherHuman Registered Member

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    Alcor has a website: http://www.alcor.org/
    Currently, they only freeze people *after* legal death. Well... how long will it take till they approve cryogenic suspension BEFORE death?
     
  8. thecurly1 Registered Senior Member

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    ONCE AGAIN OFF SUBJECT, WE DON'T HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY TODAY. PERIOD.
     
  9. kmguru Staff Member

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    It may take about 10 years of Proteomics research to have a general idea how to repair the cell structure, another 10 years to do it successfully and so on.

    I think freezing a human head now will work this way. Sometime in 2040, non-invasive scanning technology may be available such that, it will upload the neural pattern and memory engram to a computer. It could even be longer like 2100 if our economic condition is going the way it is going now....so right now, it is science-fiction. Sorry Cris...

    Freezing wholebody, using AFs may work this way. Once it works, it may be tried on convicted criminals as volunteers with money paid by DOD to save lives in conflict. I will be surprised if this has not already happened. I still think, the repair process will be based on specialized proteins yet to be designed.
     
  10. kmguru Staff Member

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    Sorry thecurly1, let me add to the topic to discuss what technology derivative we can see in the next few decades that can make Human Freezing and Unfreezing process viable and if successful, do you want to do that for yourself? I mean, do you want to be frozen and setup alarm to wake up in 100 years for a year then go to freeze for another 100 years and so on...
    just to find out how the future turned out?
     
  11. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    km,

    All I'm really intrested in at this stage is to be sure that my brain can be accurately and perfectly preserved with no damage during the process. I would then hope that science and technology will continue to grow and that safe mechanisms will be available in the future that would allow either my brain to be successfully unfrozen or an invasive scanning process has been proved reliable.

    At this time only the preservation process is important.

    Cris
     
  12. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    After the first hundred year wakeup it would be meaningless to stay around society. You are a product of your time and as such there would be very little in common with what existed for society and how you see the world. You would be so alien to them as to have almost no common links. That's putting curisoity on a level I am not sure I would want to take.
     
  13. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Nah, you're just being pessimistic. I sincerely hope that within 100 years we would have developed direct brain input learning techniques. None of this attending schools for 16 years hoping that the information sprayed around might find a target. One month, tops, to reach PhD standards.

    I would hope that when I am revived that techniques would be available to update my memories and understanding very rapidly, especially if I am uploaded into a computer based substrate.
     
  14. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    8,616
    I would take no bets either way as the future is probably far stranger than we can imagine.
     
  15. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    I tend to agree. All we can do is base our decisions on the best predictions we can find. Even though that is a risk I would prefer to make some decision than simply give up and die.
     
  16. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    That action is better than no action I would agree also. To let someone else make your decision for you is liable not to be in your best interests.
     
  17. kmguru Staff Member

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    Wet1, you are watching too many dumb movies. Most script writers, faced with future projections do not use our accumulated knowledge so far from real science and speculations from Sci-fi movies before us.

    If you can not handle going forward only 100 years, what would you do going to heaven where people from 2000 years past are running around talking in gibberish and eating with wooden spoons? Do you think, God sagregates these people by 20 years interval? And if heaven is independent of our time reality (say 90 degrees out of phase) then you may meet future souls too...

    If you really put your mind to learn, the neural connections can be newly formed, that is the way we are designed...it is an adaptive organ...


    (Sorry for the confusion, we are all posting at the sametime...)
     
  18. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    The real problem might well be inflation.

    If the money I have deposited or invested that will be used to pay for my revival is inadequate then what motivation will the freezer company have for reviving me? If my money has become so devalued so it is worthless then I hope that they will still revive me and allow me to pay off the debt over time, however, I might not have any useful skills required in the new future time.

    Hmm, but I should have an unlimited life- span so I have eternity to pay off my debts.

    Another possibility is that money might have been abolished. In which case I have no idea why anyone would want to revive an old fossil like me from te past.

    Cris
     
  19. kmguru Staff Member

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    Cris,

    You forgot other aspects like accidents, act of God meaning earthquake, act of man meaning someone stealing for brain tissue experiments, or we go back to the dark ages due to unforeseen circumstances like Attack of the Big Brain....

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  20. Hypnogog Registered Member

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    Future imperfect

    Also there's the distinct possibility of vast Depression era due to rampant over-population. If the futur-ians can easily restructure the body of a technically deceased, the implied lifespan may be unlimited. (of course ruling out colonization, but still.)
     
  21. glaucon tending tangentially Moderator

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    MMMMM! Person-sicles!!!
    Perhaps we could whip up some blue/white/pink stripe AFGP's??

    But seriously, I think the whole thawing problem could be avoided if the process involved 'flash freezing' instead. Alternatively, let's look at the real problem here: H2O is a uniquely strange molecule, and the only one that exhibits expansion during the cooling process. So, replace the water. It's either that, or the sublimation flash.
    In any case, I think the best bet would to just freeze the brain... a la.."The First Immortal', as Hypnogog mentioned.
    The author is James L. Halperin.
     
  22. HOWARDSTERN HOWARDSTERN has logged out.... Registered Senior Member

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    Last I heard, there were some attempts to freeze flesh very quickly, so as to prevent the formation of ice crystals......(ice crystals destroy cells)........

    There was also something about a natural antifreeze which is produced by frogs, fish, ect.......which prevents the formation of ice crystals in their cells during extremely cold conditions. The hope of these determined sci-pros is to produce an extract of this chemical which could be injected/transfused--actually, if I were going to attempt it, I'd use a variant of a dialysis machine to .....

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    .....nay, that wouldn't work either. The antifreeze chemical would have to be present in every cell, not just the bloodstream.......

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    .. Anyway, the challenge of circulating an antifreeze agent into every cell within the body would be very difficult. The only possibility that comes to mind would be to perhaps use some form of gene therapy that would presumably cause humans to produce the chemical in each cell.

    If the formation ice crystals in living tissue could be averted, then it seems that putting someone into cold storage & then reviving them at a later date might be possible, by many accounts.

    Freezing flesh with low temperatures is not the be all/end all of solutions though. The main goal is to simply stop bodily processes, or to <i>suspend the bodies cellular animation.</i> There may well exist a way to temporarily suspend all cellular function without using extremely cold temperatures. Perhaps chemically, or even by some kind of energy field that has a similar effect.

    Personally, I'd hate to wake up in the 23rd century, with a bad case of freezer burn ! ! ! !!

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    ............later.......hs/hs.....

    ps. DAmn ChRiS...err....Cris

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    , I was beginninning to think that you <I>MUST </I> BE FOREVER lost in the religous realms of sci-forums

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  23. kmguru Staff Member

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    Many ways of immortality:

    Freezing...
    Long long life...playing with telomerase enzyme? making all cells divide indefinitely (technology is here today)
    Mind upload to a super computer (or a quantum computer?)
    Turning in to a BORG...
     

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