# Freemarket Capitalism: SpaceX rocket launch – and landing

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Michael, Dec 24, 2015.

1. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Actually, Aristotle came from a family with means. According to your logic, our Space Program owes Hitler a gratitude of debt.

3. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Maybe you need a refresher in basic argument and logic. Changing the noun, doesn't change the form of the augment. That's the whole point.

According to YOUR reasoning, Slavery is permissible because Slaves are born owing a debt to the Masters. Their house, food, roads, medicine, utensils, etc... ALL of these wondrous things are given to the Slave by their Owner, therefor the Slave owes the Master.

WaPo: Are charter schools public or private?

In 2013 the in favor of a Chicago charter school and deemed it a private institution. Therefore, teachers at the school must organize under laws governing private-sector rather than public-sector employees.

What a joke. The Government didn't do any heavy lifting. Heavy lifting is when you take your life's savings and take a chance on an idea. Then you work 80 hours a week until you make it or you lose everything. THAT is heavy lifting. What? You think a bureaucrats who spends other people's money risks ANYTHING?!? THAT'S your definition of heavylifting??? Give me a f#cking break! I've seen hundreds of millions blown through by Government with NOTHING to show for it. Something things are worse off as the worse of the lot generally find a way to get their nose into the tax payer trough the deepest. And get this, THEY DON'T CARE. The idea of value for money, or trying to provide the public with something they want or need doesn't even enter the mind of the average Bureaucrat. Why would it? It's not their money they're spending. And it's no skin off their back if they lose it all have nothing to show for it. Just as long as the proper paper work is filled in and boxes ticked. The exact opposite is true of a capitalist who takes their life's savings and risks it all trying to provide a good or service to the public. THAT is real risk. THAT is real heavy lifting.

This is why Government Schools are such total messes where the people who are relatively decent at teaching are shat on and those who suck generally promoted. Or worse, left to run classrooms where they destroy generation after generation of students. It's why 1 in 5 graduate functionally illiterate. In many instances, the Government Bureaucrat running these institutions has ZERO idea about how to provide value for money. Worse, they have such a distorted view of free-market capitalism mainly because they themselves could never provide value, because they're next to useless, so they set about destroying anyone and everyone who might do so. Which is why we see the best Teachers leaving for Private Schools or up and starting their own Charter Schools.

And while you probably think of Evil Profit Driven Charter School Teachers trying to Steal Money by offering education. In the real world, most of these Teachers go to Charter Schools because they want to offer a valued service. And yes, they also want to be paid for that service. It's called a virtuous cycle and the reason why free-markets are themselves virtuous.

Slaves owes the Masters a debt of gratitude again huh?

Last edited: Dec 29, 2015

5. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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Actually, that is you making stuff up again. Aristotle's father was free market physician, and it doesn't change the fact that Aristotle was employed by the state. And no one but you has said or even hinted the US space program owes Hitler a debt of gratitude. That's you making stuff up again, and using hyperbole rather than fact and reason.

7. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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That's just another in a long series of your nonsensical rants.

8. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Aristotle's father was employed by the Macedonian king Amyntas II.

Oh really? Perhaps you need to look up the name Wernher von Braun. According to NASA, he is, "without doubt, the greatest rocket scientist in history", as well as the "Father of Rocket Science" ("Wernher von Braun: Feature Articles". Earthobservatory.nasa.gov. Retrieved August 15,2013). Oh, and he was a Nazi. Which means WE here in America, directly benefited from Hitler and Nazism. According to iceaura's logic, therefor Nazism was, and maybe still is, good. Because apparently for iceaura, the ends justify the means. And it also seems that to iceaura, the way history played out, was the ONLY way it could have. Because our Space Program was a direct benefactor of Nazism, not only does this validate Nazism, but without it, we'd NEVER have rocket technology. Apparently, it's impossible for free people to develop technology without the State there in the background holding a gun to some innocent person's head, Jewish, Black Slave, middle class laborer or otherwise. So, take it up with iceaura, he's the consequentialist, not me.

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10. ### iceauraValued Senior Member

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That's false also, but it's not as silly as your attempt to claim slavery imposes no costs on slaves. Except of course that it implies one can pay a debt at no cost to oneself. Maybe it is just as silly. Hard to decide, that.
It changes the validity of the argument - you know, whether the premises and conclusion are, like, true or false. You do understand that there is a difference between valid arguments whose conclusions are true, and invalid arguments whose conclusions are false, right?
According to that article, charter schools are government funded public schools.
They ruled in favor of the company the government paid to run the school, that it was a private company. The school itself remains a public school, open to the children of the community, taxpayer funded.
Not the government schools of Finland. Or Norway. Or Singapore. Or Japan. Or Woodbury, MN, for that matter.
Your claim that the list of inventions you posted was of inventions that predated government funding of science (or even government funding of the particular inventors, some of them) was - like almost every single assertion you have ever made about history, political event, or physical reality - completely false.
My definition of heavy lifting is having done the hard work, accomplished the difficult task. Which in the case of space exploration has been the contribution of various governments, especially the US and Russia.

There's plenty of opportunity for private enterprise now, piggybacking on the government's accomplishments. More power to it. I'm in favor of all that.

11. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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I'm not sure of your point? Valid arguments can have premises that are both false and whose conclusion is true. For example. If pigs can fly then 2 +3 is 6. This is a valid argument, with two false premises whose conclusion is true.

And Elon Musk has - in keeping with the long tradition of capitalistic enterprise - started from a base of technology and research and infrastructure provided by the US government at little or no cost to himself.

And the recently born Slave has - in keeping with the long tradition of Slavery - started from a base of technology and research and infrastructure provided by his Owner, at little or no cost to himself.

A recently born human, hasn't actually accrued any cost to himself, and will be cared for by their Owner until at some point in the future, they have to pay back their Owner with a lifetime of labor. Which, according to your logic, is perfectly fine. Look at all the good the Owner provided them and continues to provide them with.

Your argument is that because people alive today, benefit from in some manner from the people born before them, they therefor automatically owe them. Like Musk owes the government, a Slave owes his Master, a Peon owes their King, a child owes the parent. Well, sorry, but that's simply not true. No one is born owing a debt because to owe a debt you must have a signed a contract. Children cannot sign a contract BEFORE being born. Slaves weren't asked if they wanted to be born a Slave. And Musk doesn't owe 'The Government' anything be default. If he signed a contract as an adult, then yes, he is responsible for that agreement.

So no, you don't get to build yourself a palace and stick the bill with your kids just because you left them a crummy barn to sleep in. It doesn't work that way.

12. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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One could argue that communist farms 'work' in North Korea.

Yes, government schools are more efficient in SOME relatively homogeneous monocultureal countries. KSA is also homogeneous, yet there's no way in hell you'd want your kid attending a Government school there.

Yes, the countries you listed have Government schools that appear to 'work' better than in the USA (and many receive a lot LESS funding - Japan for example) if you think learning to competently read and write is important.
That's a VERY LOW bar to set.
Regurgitating facts is also a low bar.

A higher bar is tailored education per person such that when students graduate (if there even is such a thing needed) they go out into a society receptive towards entrepreneurial activity. In this way enough businesses open such that the laborer is actually valued and the best of those laborers have businesses in competition for their labor. That way the price of labor goes up naturally. Both menial and skilled. Reaching an equilibrium.

An example of this would be a colleague of mine who was a programmer. When the price of his labor was high enough, it was no longer worth his time and hassel to maintain his business so he sold it and went to work for someone. Someone else valued that freedom and it was worth the hassle not having a boss. THAT is the sort of free markets we need.

Note: In a free market for pedagogy, Finns would buy the sort of schools they currently now have. Why? Because THEIR society VALUES education. Ours doesn't. We value lip service and magic thinking. Oh, and an American has never seen a FREE he didn't like or a nail that couldn't be straightened with a big enough hammer.

Last edited: Dec 30, 2015
13. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Here's an interesting example I read, when looking up a better analogy for a valid argument that is true with two false premises:

Example: If n is a perfect square, then n is not prime.
True (for ANY statement n)

Now substitute 3 for n:
If 3 is a perfect square, then 3 is not prime.
True

Not that this really matters, the point is your proposition. You asserted that Musk was only able to launch his rocket BECAUSE of earlier redistribution of resources that was made by the US Government (by initiation of violence against innocent people, primarily in the form of income tax with threat of imprisonment in a rape cage for not paying up, as well as propaganda via the Government School system). It's a post-hoc justification for the Government doing so. Essentially, the ends (rocket launches) justify the means (Government forced-redistribution).

Well, the same argument can be applied to a recently born Slave. A black baby born on a plantation is the recipient of resources that was made by her Owner (who did so by threat of or actual initiation of violence against innocent people, other Slaves, primarily in the form of stealing their labor with threat of imprisonment in a rape cage for not 'paying up', as well as propaganda via the Government School system that without Slavery we'd all die of exposure in our own filth and that ALL great societies were based on Slavery AND it was in the Torah/Bible/Qur'an so, it must be Good). Slave Owners ALSO used their post-hoc justifications for Slavery. Essentially, the ends (food, cotton, clothes, 'THE' roads, don't forget THE ROADS) justify the means (Slavery).

Further, your argument is consistent with Musk (and NASA) being in debt to Nazism as our rocket program/NASA was founded by a Nazi who's discoveries were made possible by the then German Government's LEGAL, forced redistribution of goods and stolen labor.

For some reason, primarily because your basic needs are met, stealing 30-50% of a Worker's labor is okay, oh, but take it up to 100% and that's bad. Kind of reminds me of that passage in the Qur'an that says, it's okay to beat your wife, just make sure you don't hit her pretty face. You know, take a big stick and love-tap her legs and arms. That's okay, because it's for the Good of Society and God and Blah Blah Blah.... And that's where we're at. The Bronze Age. We made it all the way back full circle. Just great.

14. ### iceauraValued Senior Member

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The first one is true. The second one is false. What's your point?

It's not a justification, it's an observation. Whether or not the government was behaving well when it did all that stuff is a question you can ask afterwards - my observation is that that is what happened. And that is the only way such things happen. Whether we should have given up space exploration because it required government efforts and taxations and other horrible immoralities to get it started is an interesting question, but not one I addressed.

15. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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If you can't apply your reasoning universally, then you're engaged in Magic Thinking.

Worse still, one of your premises is false making your argument unsound.

Let's continue to apply YOUR reasoning:

And Hayat Sindi has - in keeping with the long tradition of Islamic Science - started from a base of technology and research and infrastructure provided by King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz Al Saud at little or no cost to herself.

Thank Allah for King Saud, for without him (and God) it would be impossible for Arab Scientists to make any contribution to medical science. Absolutely impossible. ONLY by having a King Saud could any scientist in KSA make any scientific progress.

16. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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No, it's the only way things happened to happen that time. It's, by definition, ULTRA CONSERVATIVE. One would think you'd be in favor of a more Progressive POV. Essentially your argument is, Government's funded space exploration, and therefor this is the only way we could have space exploration. You know, kind of like this: Slaves pick cotton, and therefor this is the only way cotton can be gathered in sufficient quantities. Or, all successful societies are run by Monarchs. Or, all successful societies prevent women from voting. Essentially, these are all ultra conservative positions to take.

It's little wonder humanoids took 3 million years to come up with something better than a rock for an ax once one of them invented it.

So, in this case, we're not dealing with the inherent immorality of Government and WHY it was LIMITED by the US Constitution. Instead we're dealing with Argument from History, Argument from Precedent. Argument for Conservative-Magic-Thinking / Normality Bias.

Except, it doesn't require government. As a matter of fact, IF we didn't have government, we'd more efficiently allocate even more resources and probably have colonies on Mars by now.

17. ### pjdude1219The biscuit has risenValued Senior Member

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No we wouldn't. you'd have to be an idiot who couldn't pass econ 101 to believe that. that's your ignorance and bias talking. why don't you just stick to the kiddy table where you belong.

18. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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That's not an argument, it's a rant. Essentially, your argument is no different than that of a Slave Owner (and was believed by 99.99% of society in the 1700's). See, without Slavery, everyone would die of exposure, starving to death.

I'm sure many Muslims believe that without King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz Al Saud redistributing all the 'wealth' Hayat Sindi could NEVER had made any medical discoveries. It's simply impossible to do anything without a King. How do we know this? Because it happened to occur in the past for many many generations. Therefor, it's normal. And normal is tradition. And tradition is not to be questioned.

It took 3 million years to evolve a human that could make a new tool to replace the rock hammer.

Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
19. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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In the meantime, the SpaceX rocket launch AND landing stands as what could be possible in a free market (free people) using sound money as capital.

20. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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It should be noted, the use of Government to act as a (inefficient) redistribution mechanism is the CONSERVATIVE position. The PROGRESSIVE position is to suggest free people are able to devise new technologies to come up with voluntary FREE-MARKET solutions to solve the big scary riddle of how to get man into the air... oh, wait, that's right. Private people invented the airplane. I meant Space. You know, because Space is so much different than near space.

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22. ### pjdude1219The biscuit has risenValued Senior Member

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No Michael its a commentary on how stupid you are and you only continue to prove it. Your right it's not an argument. There is no point in arguing with someone to stupid to understand basic economics. All major rational economic schools recognize the need for government involvement. It's called externalities. The fact you discounted them and once again lied like you always do forfeits you the right to be included in the debate. When your ready to acknowledge facts you can be included at the adult table. But if you continue to lie about basic economic facts I refuse to treat you like anything other than the bratty entitled child you act like. So complain about not being taken seriously all you want, you need to act like a rational human being to be included. As long as you mindlessly repeat debunked elitist propaganda you will be treat as a propagandist uninterested in real debate. Also seriously you going to complain about some you "ranting" when that's all you do

The government is required to intervene to maximize efficiency. This is a base fact. That you refuse to accept this fact disqualifies you from this debate.

23. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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What's more efficient? Human slavery, maintained and enforced by the government or free-market paid labor with a minimum wage and healthcare benefits? You crap on about 'externalities' and 'efficiencies' as if you know what you're crapping on about. You don't. You're just post-hoc justifying what you perceive as normal.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAaaahahahahahahaha!!!

What a f*cking load of shit. The Government is the very definition of WASTE and INEFFICIENCY. Thanks to Government finance is broken. Thanks to Government healthcare is now the #2 reason you die in the USA - as in, it will kill you off.

Why don't you tell me how floral licences increases efficiency.
Why don't you tell me how giving the AMA a monopoly on Rx increases efficiency.
Do tell how monopolizing Taxi Medallions 'increases efficiency'.
Tell us all about how generational welfare increases efficiency.
How about the decades long never ending phony War on Weapons or Mass Disappearance. Oh, I mean AlQuida, Oh I mean Radical Sunnies, Oh IS, ISIL, ISIS and etc... yes, tell me how spending trillions and trillions on CRONY MIC increases efficiencies.
How about bailing out the TBTF banks - that are now BIGGER. Yes, do tell about how the State increases efficiences.

You crap on about efficiency as if you think you know what you're talking about.

Well let's take a look at a real world example: Government run Schools.
In 12 years, OVER A DECADE, Government schools still GRADUATE functional illiterates at a rate of 1 in 5. These are Government school GRADUATES. Many thousands just quit. How much does the Government spend per pupil to get this 20% functional illiteracy rate? A cost of $150,000 PER STUDENT. Only a moron, or modern economist, would suggest$150,000 and 12 years of time 8 hours a day 5 days a week is worth NOT BEING ABLE TO COMPETENTLY READ.

Sorry, the only one sitting at the kiddies table is you.

But, lucky for you, you're in good company. And, you can expect to find more and more people at your table as the Government expands in size and scope eventually destroying society itself. In the meantime, others like myself will work to form voluntary peaceful rational relationships providing goods and services without the involvement of you Statists, and whenever possible, the State itself.

See? It's a win-win.