Freedom in the USA

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by spuriousmonkey, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    Freedom in the USA

    (I know this rant will not be appreciated by most Americans. That is in there nature. Any criticism, either by themselves or outsiders is highly frowned upon. I think this might be caused by the rampant patriotism that is interwoven in their society. )

    I, my wife, and other foreigners living in the USA have reached several conclusions on the topic of freedom in the USA that I am now going to force down your throat. If you think you cannot handle this that do not read on. Just realize that the following is a compilation of opinions and is therefore somehow a general outside view on your society. Like it or not.

    Do we (foreigners) feel free in the USA. Yes and No.

    Yes, we feel free because we feel we can leave any time we want to.

    No, we do not feel free living in the USA. Freedom can be defined in many ways. I think the standard American way to interpret freedom is the ability to do whatever you want to do. To be able to do that you need money. Generally, the acquisition of monetary funds can often be defined as the pursuit of freedom. Indeed, the USA is a great place to live in when you are rich. Everything can be bought.

    But we do not see that as freedom.

    Freedom is to lead an existence that is free of worrying. That feeling is entirely absent in the US. The simplest things suddenly become worrisome, such as healthcare. Did I ever in my life worry about health care before I went to the US? No. Do I do it here? Constantly for various reasons. Do you need to worry about your future in the US? Yes. Do you need to worry what will become of your children in the US? Yes. Do you have to worry about losing your job in the US. Yes.

    Life is all about being worried here and it reflects in the culture. People drive SUVs because they are worried. People feel the need to acquire as much money as they can because they do not want to worry. People do not care about their neighbour because they have worries enough for themselves.

    In short, I cannot taste true freedom anymore since I moved to the USA. I do not believe that this is the land of the free. It is a fable. I feel this is a land of fear and worry. Fear and worry are not part of freedom.
     
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  3. Anomalous Banned Banned

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    I didnt read the first post because,

    Today world needs freedom from America so who cares whats in America.
     
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  5. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    Strangely enough I think I agree with that.
     
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  7. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    you have overviewed th actual situation thre reall well spuriousmomey....same her in UK. we are seeing this awful horrendous americanization--read corporatism--going on....ONEgood thing. our soaps dont havethAT PUKINGLY SENNIMENAL MUZAKAIN ANY SCENE ...you know that informs the watcher what to feel....like 'now you must feel sad' etc. that's something....heh/

    but , everywhere alse. friggin adverts every soddin where. threats to privatize healeth...the encroaching eveil spread of bio-shrink-iatry....the gentrification of inner cities. more and more of trhose fukin SUVs....lots lots more people lookin fat fat fat, including kids......'24/7' FAST-LIVIN...and so on

    yur right. this shit aint freedom. its a curse. read in our Sunday that only in the so-called developed West is there a huge discontent amohngst people....according to this rticle a QUARTER of American people are on some for of so-called 'medication'
     
  8. lixluke Refined Reinvention Valued Senior Member

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    These are some concept ideas for the basic Caliditta city design.
    The prototype city is designated Sespir Grove.


    NATURAL RIGHTS
    Social freedom is the lack of freedom to violate the natural rights of the individual.
    The law does not give us our natural rights. Our natural rights give us the law. All laws are centered around protecting these rights. Any law that does not, is in violation of natural rights.
    Natural rights do not apply only to citizens of our city, but to all of mankind.
    It is the city's mission is to protect these rights for all mankind regardless of their governers.
    Any action against these rights by the city or any foreign governing body is in violation of natural rights.
    It is the individual's responsibility to uphold these rights without violation.
    It is the individual's responsibility to refuse cooperation with any order to violate these rights.
    It is the individual's responsibility (without violating these rights) to retaliate against any action in violation of these rights .
    It is the community's responsibility (without violating these rights) to form a resistance against any governing body that violates these rights.
    Corruption is a violation of any natural right including the right to equal treatment from administration.

    Life
    Safety from physical assault and harrassment
    Liberty, privacy, and ownership of property.
    Equal treatment from administration
    Truth from administration and full expedient access to information
    Clean pure air
    Clean pure water
    Clean health food
    Clean healthy environment
    Hight quality health care
    Immunity from exile from any society
    Personal modern comfortable domicile
    High education
    Wellness facilities
    Competent service with utmost respect from any civil assistant


    WORK FORCE
    Anybody employed by the city is a public assistant.
    They have taken the responsibility to serve the individual with the utmost respect and competence.

    Oath
    Never violate the natural rights of the individual.
    Protect the natural rights of the individual without violating the natural rights of the individual.
    Serve the individual with utmost respect, competence, and equality.
    Advocate the truth.
    Pursue the fair treatment and satisfaction of each individual.
    Spread awareness about and take action against any violation of this oath and the natural rights of the individual.


    First Civil Assistant (FCA) Oversees all aspects of the city.
    First Secretary Assists FCA with secretarial duties.

    Second Civil Assistant (SCA) Assists FCA with planning and city operations.
    Second Secretary Assists SCA with secretarial duties.




    BASIC CITY OVERVIEW
    This is an outline of basic city structure and facilities.
    There are various types of cities. Governing cities, mining cities, farming cities, manufacturing cities, elderly care cities, relief cities, scientific research/testing/design.

    Regardless of city function, all cities have these basic facilities.
    Power
    Water Tratement and Plumbing
    Communications
    Sewage
    Sanitation and Recycling
    Transportation
    Distribution

    Local Administration
    Habitat
    Security
    Rescue
    Maintenance
    Food Center
    Supply Depot
    Clinic and Pharmacy
    Academic Center
    Wellness and Recreation Center
    Beauty Spa
    Computer Center
    Financial Center


    PRIMARY LAND
    Primary Land is a concept I am working on.
    Upon attaining status as an adult citizen, the individual has the right to a Primary Land parcel.
    Any land owned by individual is designated private land, and all other land is designated public land.
    The individual is free to use the Primary Land parcel without restriction.
    The individual may build on it, develop it, live on it, sell it, conduct business on it, provide serviceses on it, conduct events/hold gatherings on it, etc.
    There is no tax for the property.
    The parcel owner has the option to pay for Parcel Utility Access (PUA). PUA is a set of utility services for the parcel including power, water, communications, sewage, sanitation.
    (I was going to use the tem Parcel Utility Services, but it came out as PUS. So I used PUA.)
    Security, rescue, academics etc (all non-utility services) remain available for all regardless of parcel ownership.
    The city uses PUA revenue to pay for all city utilities uncluding public areas. Any excess revenue goes to city reserves which is used for utilities for the following year.
    For example:
    The city revenues 1 million woolongs from PUA fees over the course of year 1.
    This 1 million woolongs is to be budgeted for use in year 2 to pay wages of CAs working in the utility/maintenance department. It also pays for other expenses necessary to provide PUA services for year 2.
    At the end of year 2, the city has only spent 800 thousand woolongs. They have an excess of 200 thousand woolongs.
    The city has also revenued revenued 1.2 million woolongs from PUA fees over the course of year 2.
    Therefore, the city has a 1.4 million woolong budget for year 3.
     
  9. lixluke Refined Reinvention Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,072
    IMPERIAL AMERICA
    America is a county of opportunity. Anybody in America has access to higher standard of living, better quality of life, and opportunities unavailable on most other countries.

    Nonetheless, America is a country of corruption, deceit, exploitation, and warmongering. These aspects of America cause humankind in general to suffer.
     
  10. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    I don't think that's what freedom is ....and if not, then ye're entire post isn't about freedom, it's about something else.

    Some do, some don't. What are the percentages of the two? I don't know, but you seem to know ...if so, please tell us and tell us where you got those "facts".

    So where did you "taste true freedom" before you came to America? Was there no worries there for you? Were there no fears at all? Were you happy and content? .... If so, why did you leave such a paradise? And why don't you go back?

    But again, I think you have the wrong idea of freedom. I think freedom is a lot more than something so simple as to be able to live without worry.

    Baron Max
     
  11. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    2,650
    FREEDOM IS AN ILLUSION...

    fact is, our Gov't by design spends less on police, hence, a smaller police force...

    and that is how the sense of freedom is maintained... by the illusion that we do not have a police state...

    but in truth, there are so many laws on the books.. its ridiculous..

    but they cant enforce them all.. can they? no..

    the mayor and sheriff, deside what laws to enforce, where and how often...

    PERIOD...

    which is why minorities always feel oppressed.. cause the police are always needed in their neigborhoods... hence the problem.

    another issue.. is the term POLICE...

    POLICEing means you actively seek out trash and remove it. clean up duty.

    I say it should be changed to City Guard.

    -MT
     
  12. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

    Messages:
    24,066
    No worries or fears whatsoever. I'm still happy, but I am certainly not content right now.

    I left because you need to see the world with your own eyes. I'd imagine the US couldn't be as bad as people describe it who had been there. It is.

    I will go back eventually.
     
  13. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    Spurious, what about my questions about your definition of "freedom"? You didn't answer that or comment on it. Why not?

    For example, you mentioned healthcare as if in your other nation, you had socialized medicine and healthcare, so you didn't worry about health issues. But if that's true, that the state offered all the healthcare for free, couldn't they also take it away? And if so, why wouldn't you be worried about them taking it away?

    Do you want someone else to have such a hold over you as that? And you call that "freedom"? What would you do if they threatened to take away all socialized healthcare? I mean, you being "free", what could you do to stop them?

    Baron Max
     
  14. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    9,686
    So.
    Let me see if I have this straight.
    You think that America is not free because it's not socialist?
    Because people are actually expected to *gasp* take care of themselves here?

    Heh.

    Well.
    I guess if that's your definition of 'freedom' then you really shouldn't be surprised by how 'unfree' America is. Right? I mean. So you didn't think it would be as bad as people said? So that means that you thought maybe if you asked nicely you'd get free healthcare? A welfare check? An automobile with a pretty pink ribbon from Uncle Sam?

    Nah.
    Surely you didn't think any of that.
    Surely not.


    Now. I can respect your opinion. You don't like having to pay for things. You think that society owes you. And that you feel like you're being ripped off of your just desserts while in America.
    That's understandable.
    But, it's not about freedom.
    Political freedom.
    That's the type of freedom generally meant when Americans speak of the word.
    Freedom of Speech. Freedom of press. Freedom of religion. Etc... We're able to choose freely where some other nations are unable to. Some nations have these freedoms, but they're only given at whim. They're not built into the system and they could be removed at any time. America is built upon them.

    Sure. We got our problems. Mucho problems. But, not being socialist isn't one of them.

    Get a job, hippie. (Muaha!!)


    Seriously though.
    Your PhD was free, right? A gift from the government? It's no great surprise that you have these socialistic views, but it should also be no surprise to you that they're not part of American society.


    Edit:

    Hey. Speaking of free education.
    If I went to Europe, would I be able to go to school for free too?
     
  15. Kunax Sciforums:Reality not required Registered Senior Member

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  16. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    We are not talking about getting things for free. So typical isn't it. Let's make this all suddenly into a discussion about getting things for free.

    What I was talking about is an experience of life. No, I do not feel free if I have to worry about basics. Is that really strange? To not to have to worry about basics. I noticed obviously that it is here.

    I'm paying through my nose for health insurance at the moment and still they can't seem to get it right. I am paying for something I do not have. I constantly have to chew their asses to get anything done. Last time I had to threaten them with legal action to get any response. What has that got to do with socialism and capitalism? Do you think it is normal? It isn't. I wish this was the only example. About every time you have to deal with a government agency or a company you can expect nothing but shit. Where is the freedom in that? To receive shit for free where there shouldn't be shit?

    I know what your problems are. You think this shit is normal. You think we are just bitching about this country because it is the greatest country in the world and we are jealous.

    Did we ever stop to think that maybe it isn't that great?

    I sit in a bus and the (black person) opposite of me is upset. He worked his ass off for the US his while life and now he is retired he can't get the medical care he needs (needless to say, there are no other white people on the bus besides us foreigners). All the other people chime in and agree. 'Things are fucked up. People do not care about us. We can't get even basic health care. Medicare is a farce. Why are we spending billions in Iraq if we are suffering here'.

    I will repeat this once: This is not how it supposed to be. If you are the fucking greatest country in the world you should be able to build a society were you do not worry about the basics, be it health care, consumer rights, bureacracy or whatever. Otherwise stuff your GDP figures up your ass. They are meaningless.

    It's not that difficult. Other 'less great countries' had a stab at it and succeeded much better with less resources.

    stop bitching about the messenger. Start thinking about the message.

    You are dealing with shit you shouldn't and personally that makes me personally feel unfree.

    And personally I think it is rather retarded to view socialist countries as countries were you get everything for free. Do you actually believe that kind of right wing propaganda. Let me tell you how it really is in socialist countries. We pay for that stuff and we pay it gladly because it makes our lives better and more free.

    Here you pay taxes and you don't get anything in return. The infrastructure is a bloody joke. Life is seriously expensive. How can this all be if your capitalism is so efficient. You have a black out and the power stays away for days. Are you kidding me? Is this a 3rd world country?

    So wake up and smell the roses.

    This discussion is not about wanting things for free. Socialism is not about free stuff. Free stuff doesn't exist. What life should be about is a reasonable carefree existence so you can enjoy every day. I do not want to shout at people or threaten them (as they advice me to do here) because the system is incompetent. Do I really want to waste my time feeding an ugly beast of incompetence and bureacracy or greed? Fuck no. I want to live and I want to live without dealing with shit that doesn't need to be shit.

    That is what we are talking about.

    You have shit that could be candy. But it is shit now and stinks. telling someone to leave the country or shooting the messenger isn't going to get rid of the stink.
     
  17. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    54,036
    We say we are the land of the free, but I felt more free in Germany. You could drink a beer in a car, no one asks for ID. On New Year's eve, you could go out in the street and shoot off guns. I never saw a cop there unless there was a traffic accident. In the US near Dartmouth College, it was so opposite, it was ridiculous. My German friends were amazed how often the police would tell them to stop doing something. But then again, the Hannover Cops were assholes.
     
  18. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,348
    The essential question is, "Freedom to or Freedom from?"

    You are looking for 'freedom from', the freedom that comes with not having to worry. The freedom that comes from being safe, protected, and cared for. You want freedom from the consequences of accidents or your own actions.

    This is the type of freedom that comes from refusing responsibility. This freedom is not bought with your own effort and drive but purchased for you by another. What you really wish is to be coddled and cared for and you pay for this by sacrificing your rights.

    This is the freedom of a child. You are not an adult in such a system, you become a child.

    ~Raithere
     
  19. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    Spurious, I can't help thinking that, in your initial post, ye're basically saying that you feel free when ye're dependent upon someone else or something else (the state?) to provide you with a life without worry. And yet you can't seem to see that ...why?

    Ye're basically saying that being dependent on someone else for life's basics is your idea of freedom. How can you say/imply that ...and still use the word "free"?

    Baron Max
     
  20. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    19,083
    What rights, I pray, are those?
     
  21. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    The ones that people always cry and whine about when they lose them!!

    The ones that the UN is constantly ranting about, but does nothing to help secure.

    The ones that the poor and starving are wanting but can't get because of some heartless, cruel dictator keeping the people from having them.

    And, of course, the ones that our Constitution says that we have.

    Baron Max
     
  22. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

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    3,348
    Responsibility is a necessary component of freedom, such that when you relinquish your responsibility you relinquish that freedom. The right diminished varies with the responsibility relinquished.

    Let's use a simple example; Social Security. By allowing that the government take on the responsibility of providing for our future we relinquish the right to invest (or not) a portion of our own earnings as we see fit. What is lost is the opportunity to do a better job of investing the profits of our own labors than the government can... which is really a joke because the government does not invest. A sizable percentage of 35 or so years of labor simply tossed away.

    The message is, "You are too stupid to take care of yourself, so we'll do it for you."

    ~Raithere
     
  23. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    Raithere, I do agree with the sentiments expressed in your posts. But I would like to point out that that Social Security in this nation was instituted as an INSURANCE against poor or inadequate savings, etc. for old age. It was not intended to be used as the one and only source of old age pension. It was started as ...insurance for those who could NOT provide for themselves. It was later changed to what it is now ....a stupid system that only barely works, if it does at all.

    Baron Max
     

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