Freedom – Achieved by voluntary surrender.

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Quantum Quack, Apr 30, 2008.

  1. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Just some preliminary notes for a better article at a later stage if merit can be seen.

    Freedom – Achieved by voluntary surrender.


    At first this may sound like a contradictory statement, that to achieve freedom one must surrender it, but really it is a matter of the voluntary exchange of effort for someone else’s effort. A sort of purchasing of someone else’s freedom with your own.

    This article starts with what may seem to be an incredible proposition. That being that we as humans are unconditionally and innately free and unconditional with regards to living and life in general and that it is only when we wish to “move” or progress in our growth or development that we will deliberately and voluntarily relinquish or trade our freedom for the freedom of someone else to further our cause.
    Thus reducing our innate state of freedom to one of voluntary and temporary servitude.

    Martin Luther King once stated that all men are born equal and he I believe was quite right in stating this however once we start trading and bartering with our freedom conditioning sets in and reduces our equality depending on our ability to batter successfully or not.
    Points at issue:
    1/ It is impossible for more than one individual to be free as soon as there are two free persons there will inevitably be conflict unless co-operation exists.
    2/ Co-operation requires trading of freedom and voluntary surrender of self determination. Deferring, delegating and compromise.
    3/ Freedom as an ideal is now no longer available unless one wants to be the only human on the planet or universe. [the freedom to be entirely alone is not necessarily a sort after freedom.]
    4/ It is those who barter or negotiate their freedom the best who achieve the greatest sense of freedom. Those who are successful in raising the value of their freedom or self determination [ units of value is you like] that are the most successful in achieving the degree of personal freedom. [education, maturity, life skills, negotiating skills etc]

    This is demonstrated in society by persons striving to raise their personal self determination value by improving their education and skills, thus raising their individual value on the “freedom market” [ employment market [ in this example]]

    Summary:

    Freedom is determined by how successful you are in the inherent trade in personal freedoms.
    “I shall work for you for 8 hours a day if you will pay me to do so”
    Is a classic example of negotiated freedom exchange.
    The worker surrenders 8 hours of freedom for a value in money that can be applied unconditionally by that worker, from the employers freedom [ money is his freedom]
    The employer is surrendering the freedom of his money so that he can [ capitalism ] earn more money off the "servitude" he pays for therefore increasing his money thus his freedom that the money* provides]
    So whilst we are born free and equal we very quickly learn to compromise this freedom so that we can live in peace exchanging freedom for harmony and happiness.
    Freedom therefore is a competitive state. "one persons freedom is anothers servitude"
    It is in the balance of freedom that allows harmony.

    notes:
    * money is a token value system that is essentially unconditional in that a dollar can be spent any way the owner wishes within a given set of commodity or service supply limitations.


    In psychology and religion it is often stated that to achieve the greatest gain one must "surrender" to "their nature" or to their "God" In doing so relinquishing control and thus freedom to self determine.
    In most cases incredible gains in personal peace are achieved once we realise that surrendering is not actually an act of surrender but more a state of acceptance.
    You can not surrender your nature nor can you give away something that is not able to be given away, however the act of surrender is a temporary sufference that allows progress and change and growth.




    Care to discuss?:)
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2008
  2. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Interesting - but as an evolutionarily stable strategy I don't think it works. If you don't retaliate at some point you get taken advantage of and go extinct, presumably. It's an interesting idea, though. I expect you could say it applies to Bhuddism and maybe some sects of Hinduism and Christianity, possibly. Sorry to mention religion.
     
  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for your coments.
    The problem I have is in encapsulating the concept properly.

    A freedom or self determination stock exchange.
    A free-market exchange in "freedoms"
    bartering in freedom.
    How would it be best to ecapsulate this "not so new" concept. I am sure it must be well written about somewhere...[ a field of enquiry ]

    It is the individual who is most successful in the exchange that achieves the most power. Power equating to the ability to self determine.
    The more successful you are at self determining [ exchange ] the more power you may have.

    [the word "power" is used in abstract and is ill- defined. possibly power could mean teh ability to influence and change your environment as you determine it]
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2008
  4. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Example:
    The USA allowed Japan the "freedom" to change and recover after ww2 and look what has happened since...regarding Japanese prosperity.
    The USA by old standards had the rights of a conqueror yet they allowed the Japanese an ability to recover. [ probably because the cost of holding an entire country in servitude is extreme and contrary to the philosophy of the USA constitutional ideal.]


    IMO Democracy [merit-ocracy] allthough sometimes painful, is the only system of government that allows the exchange of freedom to occur under minimal systemic controls. It is when a democratic Government "over controls" or over regulates the freedom of it's constituants that oppression and aggression is experienced. Ahh the balance is incredibly difficult to secure.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2008
  5. granpa Registered Senior Member

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    Where do you read in the OP that one must allow oneself to be takes advantage of?
     
  6. Tnerb Banned Banned

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    I liked it.
     
  7. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    'Voluntary surrender'. Surrender doesn't mean one will be taken advantage of, but it permits the possibility, and exploitation is what humans very often do. It isn't exclusive, but very likely.
     
  8. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Then one must be very careful as to what one does with their "freedom"...
    who to and why you surrender your freedom...
     
  9. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    By it's very nature it cannot be "stable" however harmony as with "a music analogue" is never entirely stable as it looses vitality and vigour [ falls asleep]

    So as a constantly metastable system [ as it is universally any way ] the notion sits well with sustainability more than stability
    Hence deomcracy may not be entirely stable but in the long term it is more sustainable as a system.

    It is in the general degree of stability I guess that affords comfort or discomfort...

    Ie Australian westminster system is stable and sustainable but also half asleep.
    The USA system is not so stable yet relatively sustainable but very awake and dynamic...
    So if you want to work hard and be dynamic you go to the USA and if you want to retire or relax you come here to Australia....ha
     
  10. granpa Registered Senior Member

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    ok. but that still doest mean that you are expected to allow yourself to be taken advantage of. nothing in what the OP said and nothing in what you just said in anyway implies that you cant 'retaliate' if mistreated.
     
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    it is interesting that Geoff highlights a sense of paranoia about surrendering. Quite common reactions I would expect as most support groups around the globe would say.
     
  12. Tnerb Banned Banned

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    1: What is freedom?
    2: Freedom is achieved

    Some of your propositions would make one see things from a different light, particularly the bit about relinquishing freedom due to other peoples freedom(s). That they have co-operation and once volentary surrender is given "freedom" is achieved.

    I don't see how you get this.
    I couldn't surrender, without giving up everything.... I suppose on a conflict sort of basis it would be supportive. To have one side support the other side in cases of anxiety or something..

    Other than that I'm clueless.
    But that's just me.
     
  13. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    No, merely the grim realization that most humans are not really trustworthy.
     
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    yes and this is a given ....

    exchanging freedoms is what we all do all the time to survive in a competitive environment. And of course if someone doesn't trade fairly then they are obviously on the outer eventually...
    However to exchange a freedom we have to surrender it of give it to someone else in return for what we deem as fair value or value we can tolerate [ in the case of doing work we do not like to do...[ have to's so to speak]

    It is however obvious that any future article produced must include the natural cynicism that springs to mind when talking of such things...
     
  15. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    you just surrendered some of your freedom to type your post. Your free time has been devoted by choice to typing your response.

    .... not that bad hey?
     
  16. Clown Banned Banned

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    It is a contradiction.

    If purchasing is needed then there is no freedom to begin with.

    Need is what's at play here.
    Where there is need there is dependence.
    To which, no independence.
     
  17. Tnerb Banned Banned

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    I see...
     
  18. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    There is no freedom as it is only an illusion of independance.
    It is when that illusion of independance is understood for what it is you can actually start to trade in it properly.
    Possibly it could be stated that some have more freedom than others and are able to determine their futures more than others but there are no absolutes in either freedom or self determination. IMO.
    When you say "need" = dependance I woud challenge you to show me any life form that has NO need.... thus every living thing is dependent whether that be oxygen, h2o or what ever....

    Humans have many needs no matter how independant we may think we are... so therefore we can only consider freedom as a degree and not an absolute..
     
  19. Clown Banned Banned

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    And so freedom is a comparison.
     
  20. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    I would suggest yes and that it is relative.
     

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