free will and gibbersih

How does it not?

That's a far cry from reproducing the mind. Need I point out that many people may do the same thing but for different reasons? Those differing reasons would dictate different behaviour in different situations.
Also, the mind is not an event. Reproducing an event is much different from reproducing a mind.

 

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Couple of if's

If the the universe is balanced and must follow certain rules, and if we have true free will, then we are the only things in the universe able to upset the balance.

kula

 

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Chaos doesn't matter here. We're not talking about practicality. The mind (and everything controlling it) is bordered by a skull about 18 x 16 x 15 cm in volume. reproducing this brain exactly will not break the laws of thermodynamics!!!

 

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See above

How is it illogical? I just said that having (what appears to be) inconsistent beliefs, is not actually inconsistent with the laws of nature. Therefore it is allowed!

Why do u keep telling yourself there must be cause and effect?! U have to stop thinking in the classical for a moment (we are in the philosophy forum remember!). I never claimed that all levels of nature have true randomness as its sole dictator. Read my post to Farley. In that case the universe WOULD be a jumbled mess and science would not exist.

There is no such thing as free will.

I agree it is counterintuitive (which is why u don't believe it) but it is scientifically founded IMO.

U area aware of what u are doing but more subtly, u are not really making those choices independently of the laws of nature.

Certain aspects CAN be reproduced as long as the entropy of the universe tends to increase.

 

Thats not the point we were arguing now was it?!

Either way, my point stands that QM makes sense at any level u wish to talk about. At least u agree with me on that.

 

it is more complete than classical theory!

 

*Sigh*
Fuck it. It's not worth it to argue with you. It's just too tedious.

 

I hope u haven't given up now alpha

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John, Alpha, sugarcakes -- don't fight, okay?

 

This is too tedious. It took like ~100 posts just to clear up what the hell we were talking about. It's not worth it.

 

Thats true. Can we just leave it and say that we both disagree on whether free will can be allowed (whether it seems apparent or not) in this universe?!

If so, its been great arguing with u Alpha. We'll have to strike up another one sometime

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Indeed. On another subject though, lol.

 

Another thought, maybe consciousness is the quality that allows a quantum state to become fixed. (consciousness could then be seen as the 'pattern finding' force in the universe, are all patterns conscious due to their self referencing nature)

Free will could be seen as a function of consciousness, required to 'measure' potential energy into real existance, but this would mean also that we could choose to go against the natural evolution of the universe. Can we introduce disharmony into the universe ?

The universe only follows rules of cause and effect once physical objects exist, but until something is observed (measured) it has a random nature. But we dont 'see' randomness. Now in some ways it appears that something is'choosing' to fix all the possible quantum states into an ordered and patterened whole. So, if there is no free will, the universe is pretty lucky to be so harmonious when so many other possibilities exist.

kula

 

How could it mean that?!

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Possible. One of the Copenhagen interpretations I believe

What do u mean by harmonious?

Do u believe that consciousness or "free will" has only existed for the past 1 million years or so in the universe?

 

p.s. Thanks for getting me all riled up and started again

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Free will, to me, suggests that we are able to choose a future state against the otherwise uneffected progression of the universe. The universe may always balance itself out, no matter what decisions are made, so 'real' free will would be the ability to unbalance the universe. (introduce chaos to an otherwise patterned system ? Make it collapse ?)

Patterns and ratio's exist. The cycle/orbit of an object is related to other objects. Objects vibrate in sympathy with other vibrations they encounter. Maybe if all the energy in the universe were once concentrated in a small enough space, then every 'bit' of it would be able to share vibrational qualities.

I'm not sure, this is something that i'm pondering at the moment. We have certainley added a lot of meaning to the symbols we use to communicate, but wether some sort of perfect mathematical machine language gave rise to concious thought or free will, i'm not sure. I also dont have a problem with conciousness itself evolving. So that, for example, any self referencing pattern would be concious, the more complex the pattern, the more self awareness it would have. (Ive also thought of the possiblity of the potential energy that is now the universe once 'forming' into a perfect circle and being perfectly self referencing thus encompassing everysingle pattern, becoming totally self aware and choosing to exist as patterned energy rather than the numerous chaotic possibilities)

Kula

 

Yes, thats what I believe

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Theimportant thing is being able to differentiate between consciousness and free will. I believe we can have one without the other. Its like being tied and gagged in a room. U are aware of the robbers stealing all your possesiona but u cannot do anything about it!

 

Evolution of free will

I'm not sure on the exact difference between consciousness and free will. I can understand that consciousness doesnt automatically give you the ability for action, but it does enable you to operate the physical tools that at your disposal. (effecting your dreams, thinking, moving your body.) I would like postulate on 'intensity' of consciousness, as in, could someone be superconscious and yet have no free will over their thoughts ?

I feel in some ways that science has ignored the effects of consciousness on its results and without wanting to contradict science too much, I think the connection could be that conciousness is required to 'fix' a quantum state into a measurable pattern whilst free will is not complex enough to choose what that exact state will be.

Maybe free will is something that we are evolving, we need to learn to use it in our own thoughts before we can transpose it effectively into the 'outside world', but consciousness is still essential for free will. So although they can be differentiated between, they both are essentially aspects of the same awareness of our interaction in the universe. Free will, and communicating the idea of free will, is more easily recognised by others when we talk of externalised/physical free will, but i like to believe that all consciousness has the ability to think 'freely' (again, 'freely' could be ambiguous depending on 'how' conciousness thinks, how complex those thoughts could be, what patterns and symbols that conciousness is able to use in its thoughts. Or maybe you can have a totally free thinking conciousness when it is freed from the use of patterns in its thoughts.)

'Intensity' of consciousness aside, who would have more free will, a president with awesome physical power at his disposal, or a paraplegic able to choose the content and direction of their lucid dreams ?

But then you have to ask how much 'pure thought' can effect the 'external' universe (if indeed it is external !)

kula