Free Will and Determinism

It's purposeless to post links you don't want to stand by or make some point about. You and me both know you're smarter than that, so stop pretending please. Just say it already, what is it you know that we don't about abiogenesis or evolution?

Clearly what I'm talking about is very actual reality and physics, practical mechanism and not any abstract philosophical idea. It has very much to do with abiogenesis and evolution, so I find the topic about consciousness and free will quite fitting for this discussion we're having right here. Try to answer my question and you should understand what I mean: - if your physical body is completely governed by the laws of physics, can your "free will" make it do anything different than what it was already going to do by itself anyway?

 

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How do you know what something will do, before the event? Don't forget that the physical Present is only preceded by an Implied potential future. Allow me to ask a counter question: Are we compelled to do what our physical body "was already going to do" before presented with a specific situation?

That identical systems behave similarly under similar circumstances is a logical conclusion.

But living organisms are complex and NEVER identical and each will have its own response to stimuli. Each performing deterministically, but with different outcomes, even under similar conditions.
Proof of that lies in the formation of different elements emerging from a cooling chaotic beginning.

Then we may ask if ALL the laws of nature (some of which we are not even aware of yet) apply exactly the same throughout the universe at all times?
What happened to elementary particles during Expansion Epoch, in Novae, in Black Holes, at Planck Scale? Do all these events obey the same laws of nature in the same way and always yield the same results?

Lest I be misunderstood, these are probing questions, not statements of fact.

 

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Which one?

How do you believe free will can influence any event in the physical world if the laws of physics are unchangeable?

Please answer the question already. If your physical body is completely governed by the laws of physics, can your "free will" make it do anything different than what it was already going to do by itself anyway?

 

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All your questions, including this one have been answered by many, many times.
They are obviously though not the answers you wish to here.

 

Neither he nor you ever properly addressed the question. Please, make yourself clear, what is your answer to that question: YES or NO?

 

So we agree, the only way for free will to exist is if it could have the power to control the laws of physics, i.e. telekinesis or "mind over matter". Right?

 

Or the third option: Foresight, and using the laws of nature for "specific future purposes", iow, not changing but using the laws of nature for our purpose.

a) Past : deterministically fixed.
b) Present: deterministically fixing.
c) Future: Indeterminate (uncertain) and not yet fixed, thus open to influence.

 

Thanks for those pearls of wisdom Trippy. That's where the posters here should gravitate to (speaking of accretion).

No, there is no such thing as free will. That's a misnomer from Calvinism. There is only will, and it is seated in conscious and subconscious regions of the mind, as well as impulsive and uncontrollable urges (the gag reflex exploited during waterboarding) other subliminal urges like thirst, hunger, the sex drive etc., and simple choices like which color of socks go with the kilt. But nix the Calvinism altogether and you get basic Biology. Birds feed their chicks because they have an instinctual urge to do so. But they do other things "at will" for reasons that relate to how their brains were wired through evolution. We're in the same boat. We are not special. Some of us are just patently narcissistic. And chronically naive. And flunked Biology. All of that is part of the issue at hand.

 

This Thread is so funny, that it borders on obscene!

An analogy :

There seems to be a racemic mixture of Members all doing exactly the same thing, but mirroring each other.

Some shoot with left-handed weapons and some shoot with right-handed weapons, but both are aiming at a phantom target!

The phantom being the inane question posed by humbleteleskop, in the first place!

The only thing that the Human body does by itself anyway is...nothing!

It cannot manifest itself into existence...by itself! It depends on parents to achieve that!

Once in existence, it cannot produce its own food by itself to continue its existence...it depends on it's parents for that!

It will never attain adulthood by itself, without "free will"...unless it's parents or surrogate parents exercise their "free will" to ensure it's continued existence!

I could go on and on and on and...but it is really hard to type, lying face down, and laughing my testicles off at the same time!

Though I have not entirely Grok'd if this racemic mixture of shooters is indeed heterochiral or not, all of them seem very intent on using up all of their ammunition, instead of actually realizing there is no target!

All of that is intensely funny to observe...a bit painful in my current position though!

What makes it entirely Hilarious though, is that none of the shooters can understand the obvious enjoyment that humbleteleskop must be experiencing.

humbleteleskop, obviously knows, and all the shooters should, too, that your physical body does not remain viable for any extended length of time by only doing what it was going to do by itself anyway...because it cannot do anything by itself anyway!!

 

I'll answer it, then -

No, you cannot do anything that your physical body (and everything that makes up that physical body, including your mind) cannot do. That's pretty simple.

 

Wrong.

Free will means that under the same circumstances you could have acted other then what you did, which of course is unprovable.

Moreover, you are completely missing the fact of our ability for abstract thought and the recognition that we can "use" natural law for our purposes, because we know what it does. There is a difference, because it is not instantly reactive, but allows for inventive uses of natural law.
To my knowledge we are the only animal with that ability. They are unable to employ long term abstract thought and can only behave reactively to events. No wiggle room.

 

You still keep missing the point. To understand you need to answer this question directly, YES or NO: - If your physical body is completely governed by the laws of physics, can your "free will" make it do anything different than what it was already going to do anyway?

 

Does the laws of physics explain thought ?

 

You mean is "consciousness" possible with deterministic/constant laws of physics? Like, can a machine acquire consciousness? I say yes, it can. But consciousness is not free will, consciousness is just passive observer unable to do anything about the outside physical world.

 

Been answered.
The laws of physics are what evolved at the BB.
Free will is governed by Evolution.
Science is what we what we know: Philosophy is what we don't know:

I don't and neither does anyone else by the looks of it, support your mythical concept re telekinesis.
sheesh, we have one pushing creationism with the repeated same claims, and this one pushing some other mythical phyco babble with telekinesis.

Now stop trolling and accept the answers you have been given.
Because just repeating the same questions is certainly trolling.

 

That's similar but not quite the same question. I'm not asking whether your "will" can make your physical body do what it possibly can or can not do. I'm asking can your "will" make your body do anything DIFFERENT THAN IT WAS GOING TO DO ANYWAY, as in "influence the future"?

 

So if i feel compelled to kill someone, I am not guilty because I have no free will and it was deterministic law that MADE me do it? I had no choice?

 

Gee, this is the third time, I have agreed with dmoe...In fact I thought this about 5 pages ago.

 

Or, another point to consider is if I am forced to act against my (deterministic will.?

I am not arguing for "free will" I stipulate that nature works deterministically. I am merely pointing out that while I am subject to deterministic laws, there is wiggle room for future events because they arenot yet fixed.
By your strict definition we might as well do as we please because we are not able to control deterministic law anyway. What's the point? No responsibility?

 

What is it then that makes a human body do the things it does if not the body itself? Can your "will" influence the future?