Free energy

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by crazeeeeeem, Apr 29, 2007.

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  1. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    The second law is true and applies in ALL cases without exception.

    And name calling gets you nothing but another infraction report.

    Here's an idea: file a class-action lawsuit against GE, Carrier and all the other big makers of heat pumps for deceptive advertising and false perdormance claims. And don't forget all the hundreds of outlets that sell them and all the HVAC companies/cxontractors that install them, too. Since you have the "facts" on your side you stand to win millions!
     
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  3. crazeeeeeem Registered Senior Member

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    I wonder if I can ban your nonsensical tripe from replying to me.
     
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  5. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    What are you talking about????

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    That reply was CLEARLY not a response to YOU!!!! Go away.
     
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  7. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    What name-calling? I didn't see any name-calling. Did anyone else see any name-calling?

    No, the manufacturers of heat pumps have achieved what would be called perpetual motion (although wrongly) were they to use it to generate electricity, and they have proven the invalidity of the 2nd law.
     
  8. hypewaders Save Changes Moderator

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    What a ridiculous argument. The second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems. Heat pumps are just thermal-energy transporters between separate systems. Just as you can carry coals to Newcastle, you can argue back and forth about the implications of carrying thermal energy from A to B all you like. But there's nothing mysterious in the pumps I happen to install as part of geothermal home heating systems, nor is their mystery in our refrigerators, in our air conditioners, etc. There's nothing to argue here, except a parsing of terms.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2007
  9. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    Then the 2nd amendment to the laws of thermodynamics only applies to other than real-world systems. Thus it is wrong to say that the 2nd law forbids the existence of machines that employ a certain form of perpetual motion.

    Torturing Read-Only is fun.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2007
  10. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Right! I happened to see it JUST before you edited it out.

    That doesn't even deserve a comment.
     
  11. hypewaders Save Changes Moderator

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    MetaKron: "it is wrong to say that the 2nd law forbids the existence of machines that employ a certain form of perpetual motion."

    No it's not. By definition, a "perpetual motion machine" is a pipe-dream that only exists in fantasies ignorant of basic physics. Wikipedia among other sources chronicles the convoluted history of these recurrent hoaxes.

    PMMs (Infoplease):
    1st Law of Thermodynamics:
    2nd Law of Thermodynamics:
    Heat Pump Basics from How Stuff Works.

    Let's not confuse commonplace, functional devices like heat pumps with quackery.
     
  12. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    I don't see how you happened to see an insult. It wasn't visible when I looked back at the message. I did see a formatting error or two to edit. I have no idea what you are talking about.

    Considering your first message on this board, it's funny as hell to watch you twisting at the end of this line.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  13. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    Hypewaders, all you understood out of that was "quackery" and that poorly.
     
  14. hypewaders Save Changes Moderator

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    12,061
    Then refute what I "misunderstand" point-by-point:

    PMMs by definition violate the laws of thermodynamics; are quackery

    LOT-1 Conservation of Energy

    LOT-2 Entropy and Work

    Heat Pump operating principles
     
  15. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    Bull! It was there and I clearly saw it - you've NO credibility with me anyway.

    Twisting???? Not at all. I'm not even the least bit inclined to try and explain away your foolishness over thermodynamics and how heat pumps actually work (which, in truth, is quite simple and requires NO "creative accounting" as you called it).

    I suppose you also think that pumping oil to the surface of a well requires more energy than you can recover from the oil, eh? Yeah, that's a different topic entirely but it perfectly parallels your lack of understanding about heat pumps.
     
  16. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    Clearly saw what? Did you edit it out? You quoted something, was it in there?
     
  17. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Stop trying to be cute and acting so innocent. You called me an asshole and then edited it out yourself - so of course it didn't show up in the quote.

    As I said, your personal integrity was already shot to pieces with me before I even made my first post. And all you've done since - like this little episode - just reinforces that.
     
  18. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    I'm sorry. Honestly, when I read over my last few messages to you, I couldn't see anything except where I said that you really should go to hell. I don't know what else you "plainly saw."

    You're also trying to tell me that the 2nd law works outside of closed systems when you want it to.

    Are you sure the insult isn't in that quote at the top of this page? If you give me ten dollars I might tell you what I did.
     
  19. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    Not the least bit interested. End of story.
     
  20. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    It's in the quoted material but it's not in the messages that I wrote. How did that happen, Read-Only? Did you edit it in?

    If you don't want people to play games with you, don't start shit with them.
     
  21. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    Oh, give it up. You aren't about to bait me into dropping to your level so you might as well quit trying - or just keep on, if that suits you. I really don't care what you do or say since so little of it is believeable anyway. And no - there is nothing edited in - can't you even read it?
     
  22. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    You don't know how you could see it and no one else could and how come you can't see it now, so you're pretty simple-minded. Also, I don't think that it is possible for you to rise to my level.

    The fact is that the heat pump is an example of a perpetual motion of the first type. It requires an actual input of energy at the cold side, but that fact didn't keep people from writing the definition of a perpetual motion machine of the first type.

    You see, my method of insulting you is like trying to explain a scientific concept to you. It's there but you can't see it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2007
  23. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    Including open systems, which means most real-world cases?

    I hear that read-only needs to grow a set.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2007
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