Forum rules update

Discussion in 'SF Open Government' started by James R, Aug 7, 2011.

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  1. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    You can show any PM to anybody you like. You can't post it on one of the public forums without the author's permission. Of course, it might be very rude to show somebody's private PM to another party without their knowledge or permission, but that's a matter of upbringing, good manners, that kind of thing.

    Is this really so hard to understand?

    I can't speak for "most" admins. As an admin here, I can tell you that I have no power to read people's PMs. Only the site owners can do that, and I'm sure they would only do it if there was a good reason to do it.
     
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  3. Varda The Bug Lady Valued Senior Member

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    Yes this is very difficult to understand. You need to dumb it down some more for us retards on the board. Let's discuss the rules to exaustion as they are extremely important to a good posting experience .
    What if I share a pm with someone, and this someone had terrible upbringing and posts it in a public area. What are the implications for me and for this bastard?
     
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  5. Mr MacGillivray Banned Banned

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    What if the content is on how you hate the moderators. Surely the moderators aren't going to punish the person who published that PM.
     
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  7. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Varda:

    Interesting that you post this and then go on to ask another question.

    This thread is for people who want to discuss or comment on the rules update. If that doesn't interest you, nobody is forcing you to read the thread or to contribute to it. I'm well aware that many posters have little to no interest in the rules. They make the reasonable assumption that if you don't behave like a dick (as somebody else put it), you'll be fine as far as moderation is concerned, which usually turns out to be right.

    No implications for you. A warning for the bastard if it is a first offence, or a ban if there's some kind of history and active infraction points. Isn't this clear enough from the rules?


    MacGillivray:

    We have threads on how people hate the moderators. That particular topic has no particular connection to the publishing of private messages without consent.
     
  8. OnlyMe Valued Senior Member

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    I cannot back this up with any evidence, but this sounds almost as if a PM here is more secure than most e-mail. At least internally.
     
  9. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    It's only as secure as the person you send it to can be trusted not to make it public. How much trust are you going to have if that PM is derogatory and has a lot of profane name calling in it?
     
  10. OnlyMe Valued Senior Member

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    That's the case in any form of communication. I was really commenting on the mechanism that is implied. Some public e-mail servers seem far less secure than Jame's implied a PM is.
     
  11. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    I think a court order gets access to all of it, so if you are a friend of a friend that got murdered all of your emails for your entire life might end up in an evidence box and used against you after you have sworn to tell the truth.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    And when they find out you are a forum member, same deal.
     
  12. OnlyMe Valued Senior Member

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    The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

    This is getting way off topic, but sometimes a little humor can lighten the mood of things.
     
  13. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    I'd like to bring up one issue for discussion:
    Members talking about their own future/possible suicide attempts, suicide ideation and such.

    I think there should be a limit on this.

    It is unnecessary negativity for the forum that there are posts to the effect of "I'm again thinking about offing myself."

    Suicide is a serious matter and should not be talked about so casually.

    There are forum rules on
    Personal attacks, threats and stalking
    Hate speech and stereotyping
    Defamation

    - and these should apply to the person themselves as well, at least to some extent.

    If it is against the forum rules to personally attack other posters, threaten them, speak about them hatefully and defame them,
    then it should also be against the forum rules to do that to oneself.

    A forum poster is a forum poster.
     
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Suicide is a tricky topic that comes up every now and then. I don't think we should rule the whole topic out as off-limits. On the other hand, we don't want to encourage people to start threads threatening their own suicide, either.

    Other opinions?
     
  15. Varda The Bug Lady Valued Senior Member

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    I wasn't being sarcastic. I want you too look uder every rock.
    If I may end up banned because of your interpretqtion of a rule" I'd rather know what it is before it hahappens

    No. Nothing in the rules is clear enough if you're going to be bending it to suit your fancy.
    Now, let's get on with some more specifics.

    What if the content of my pm is criminal?
    What if I, under expectation of privacy, pm someone a picture of me torturing bunnies?
     
  16. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    I agree, so what do you suggest be done when it happens? I don't want to be cold about it. But the last time it happened it almost felt like a troll that everybody got suckered into because they didn't want to be seen as calling it what it was on the chance that it was true. It's my belief when people want to talk about it, they rarely do it.

    If it were my choice to make the policy I'd make any talk of suicide in the personal sense a 30 day suspension, and permanently if it happened a second time. We don't need to be enabling that kind of behavior.
     
  17. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Varda,

    This criminal or bunny-boiling PM is somehow brought to the attention of a moderator, I assume. Either the recipient reports the PM, or else forwards it to a moderator or something like that.

    So, let's say I receive a forwarded PM in which you say you're about to import a shipment of Crystal Meth. I'd be inclined to investigate that matter to some extent, and would seriously consider providing your ISP details to relevant law enforcement authorities. The same kind of thing may apply to the bunny torture, too.

    Verification is always a potentially thorny issue. If in doubt, though, then as an Administrator I may be put in a position where I either report you or ignore the potential maltreatment of who knows how many animals. Also, since I know that torturing animals is often a precursor to the commission of violent crimes against human beings, it may be best to nip this kind of thing in the bud.

    ----

    I'm, interested, though. What would you do as a forum moderator in that kind of situation?
     
  18. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    If they directly say they are going to this is because they are conflicted and want someone to talk them out of it. Means that they are on the fence, putting them on a ban might be just enough to push them over.
    There's at least two people here I know of who are probably still alive because they came on here and announced they were really going to,this time, seriously.
    When I was at Ye Olde Mental Health Forum it was a really slow week when at least two threads like this didnt get started.
    Especially if someone's attempted before, but in general? Um, someone announces as opposed to ideating that they'd like to...they do mean it.

    Edited: that's my experience.
    If it does become an attention-seeking behavior?
    I would suggest dealing with it then...

    Edited some more...I lifted this from another poster in one of those threads.

     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  19. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    I wasn't suggesting that the whole topic of suicide be ruled out.

    I am thinking about a rule similar to Godwin's Law: when someone starts talking about their own possible suicide, the discussion be closed and/or the post be deleted.
     
  20. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    As far as I know US laws, it is illegal to take it upon oneself to try to talk someone out of suicide. Instead, if someone threatens with suicide, one is supposed to inform the authorities; otherwise, one may become an accessory to a crime.


    Edit:

    Found this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation

    - and this is where the problem is.
    If a person does attempt to or commits suicide and one was present, one might need to prove one did not "aid, advise or encourage another person to commit suicide."

    In a forum like this, there may even be posters who would directly suggest that someone should commit suicide.
    A suicidal person may also take otherwise well-meaning advice the opposite way.

    Basically, we as posters here are not equipped to aid a suicidal person, and we might be making things worse even if we try to help. And by trying to help, we might even be doing something illegal.

    So there should be some protocol for what to do in a case when a poster talks about their own suicide.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  21. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    From some websites on suicide:





     
  22. OnlyMe Valued Senior Member

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    James, you are obviously finding a diverse set of opinions. I am glad I am not in a position that I have to make any decision on the subject.

    Any claim that someone makes that he/she is contemplating suicide, represents a serious situation. I don't think that banning such statements could serve any constructive purpose. For some this may be their only or one of their only mechanisms of contact with others. For anyone who is genuinely considering suicide, cutting them off from contact with others, could as someone else has already mentioned, just reinforce their underlying psychological issues.

    Banning any thread discussing suicide in general or anyone who promotes or encourages suicide, is probably a good idea.

    How to deal with any individual who proclaims a suicidal intent, I have no real constructive recommendation. If the threat seems real enough, an administrator might have sufficient information that outside authorities could use to identify and locate the individual and provide some help. If so that might be something to consider and pursue.

    I believe that anyone who is suicidal and openly claims be be thinking of suicide is likely asking for help and should be given the help they need, when possible. There is also a part of me that maintains that everyone should have the right to make a decision about life for theirselves. I cannot know what the world looks like to anyone other than myself, so there is no way for me to judge another's decision, except as it involves others or society as a whole. Essentially, people should have the right of self determination and when necessary be given what support they need, during times of personal crisis.

    Again I am glad that I am not in a position that I need make any official decisions, involving this issue.
     
  23. Varda The Bug Lady Valued Senior Member

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    I don't believe in moderation. Life is too short.
     
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