For The 'Non-Believers'

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Wizdumb, Aug 25, 2005.

  1. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Now that's comedy
     
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  3. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    sciforums amuse me....

    I guess this is a SIGN FOR THE NON-BELIEVERS....!!!!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
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  5. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Water:

    They are mutualy exclusive. Faith is baseless opinion, rooted in subjective whims. Reason seeks logical and/or empirical proof. I believe it was in "Meno", where Socrates demonstrates something which could be used to speak of the difference betwixt faith and reason. The slave boy believed the square was twice as big via faith, but knew it was really four times as big by reason.

    I think the fruits the tree of faith bear are evident to me enough that I'd not want to partake. Just as the sparrows might avoid ringworms, I avoid things which are poisonous, too.

    Taoism does, for as Lao Tzu said, "The Tao is older than God". Hinduism holds something similar (though some schools are panentheistic in nature). Buddhism, whilst non-theistic, might be said to support a similar notion with "dependent origin". Pantheistic Wicca might. Many of the Indo-European polytheistic religions did with Chaos being the ultimate originator of the Gods and such. Animism doesn't seperate "God" from the physical world, nor do American Indian religious beliefs. I would even go as far to say that any school of thought that believes God existed before any "creation" is manifestly false. See my argument against God being able to be a creator in "Refutation of Non-Transcendental Idealism".

    No, I only am very certain I know some aspects of truth, and am always open to other theories.

    Upon what foundation would we be unable to come to know A's identity? If I see a car, it must equal itself, must it not?

    First you have to observe that wood can produce fire, probably through accident of coming upon an exploding tree from a lightning strike, then you have to conceive of the possibility of making fire appear in a more controlled manner, then you have to find some way to produce heat and link that notion with heat to fire...So yes, it is a very exhaustive process. No wonder it took thousands upon thousands of years for man to finally learn how to make fire.

    Yes. Naturally. I'd not have had 20 years of time to learn more. That being said, I doubt 20 years would destroy basic axioms of truth.

    Ah yes, I am familiar with those.

    Here's an interesting statement from Wikipedia about a misconception of it:

    The theorem does not imply that every interesting axiom system is incomplete. For example, Euclidean geometry can be axiomatized so that it is a complete system. (In fact, Euclid's original axioms are pretty close to being a complete axiomatization. The missing axioms express properties that seem so obvious that it took the emergence of the idea of a formal proof before their absence was noticed.)

    I'm not horribly worried about it.

    Strength: Willing to live without that which is false. Weak: Clinging to fallacies in order to support their fragile egos.

    They sound pretty psychologically weak to me. Unwilling to face challenges...
     
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  7. John Smith III Banned Banned

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    I'm sure that this has been posted somewhere on this thread before, but somebody should give Pascal the kudos he deserves for originally formulating this idea in his famous "wager" form. The initial post is basically just a straight rip of his idea, but dumbed down and uncredited
     
  8. nameless Registered Senior Member

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    Faulty as it was... (Pascal's wager, that is...)
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2005
  9. gratitude&love order's efficient,chaos likely Registered Senior Member

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    i've only read a couple pages of this post. but it seems that you all seem to think of god as seperate of you. how could you not see the kingdom of the heaven in everything? including yourself. being raised in a very religous family that wont even speak a greeting to me now. because i have a different belief, i choose to not have a "belief" but rather an idea of what there is out there.

    seems alot of you rely on what others tell you to belive. why? when if you were to quite your ego, you would understand that the world around you relies on your input of reality to exist. thus you are all gods in a sense. and you manifest your self and your existance, constantly.

    i would say existance after death is quite probable. just like, existance, in my viewpoint was, also before your life in this realm started. everything that makes you, you. was there since the formation of the universe. the minerals, the water, everything. so what makes you think this is the first time your soul (or your observer) has been?

    tell me this. think back 3 months ago.... 3rd week in june, recall the events of the week precisely. for most thats pretty tough to do. now do the same for 6 months,
    now go 2 years, and tell me as much as you can about the month of july. probablly wont be alot. now 5 years...
    now tell me about when you were 10 years old. maybe one or two things that stand out in your memory. how about when you were 5....
    now tell me about your birth. you can prove you were there and that it happened, but do you remember?
    now how about your conception or before. like i said before, everything that makes you, was there, so do you remember?

    as you took your first breath, and were born into your infant self.
    you will take your last breath, and be born into your infininte self.
    Joel Clark, 2005
     
  10. Cottontop3000 Death Beckoned Registered Senior Member

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    More religious nuttery. Who'd a thunk it?
     
  11. gratitude&love order's efficient,chaos likely Registered Senior Member

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    i agree, religion is totally a control device. i am my god, you are my god as well. in turn all are gods of mine as i am your god.
     
  12. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    being raised in a very religous family that wont even speak a greeting to me now. because i have a different belief

    No words can describe how pathetic your family is for choosing their beliefs over you.

    you would understand that the world around you relies on your input of reality to exist

    Reality is just fine and will go on existing without our input.

    i would say existance after death is quite probable.

    How is it probable?

    i am my god, you are my god as well. in turn all are gods of mine as i am your god.

    Why can't we all just simply be people?
     
  13. gratitude&love order's efficient,chaos likely Registered Senior Member

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    "reality is just fine and will go on exsisting without our input"
    how can reality be real without someone to say if its real or not?

    "how is it probable?"
    one earlier post spoke of believing the earth will rotate around the sun ect...
    because the fact that it has been for all this time so it is logicall to "belive" it will again tommorow.
    it's sorta like that. everything has a previous stage, a present state, and a stage after its present state.

    for example. take a blade of grass, what was it before, seed, light, carbon dioxide, water, nutrients, all these things were what the grass was before its present state of grass.
    then it is ingested and is now energy, the oxygen it provided, and then back to nutrients. and all those exact properties that made it grass are still present. and possiblly alot of the same atoms in the old grass will be in the new grass. it never ends
    if it is so with something so basic as grass, or any matter.
    something so complex as thoughts, personalities, and consciousness, cant be so easily lost. at least not in my reality.

    i was just remembering something i heard, or read.
    even the particles that make up matter, can only be explained as a focused thought. even science will concede this fact.
    so if even the most solid of things you can think of. are acctually only focused thoughts. then really if you believe it to be so you will move a mountain with the power of your thoughts,(or belief). so your input surely will effect reality. at least in my reality.
     
  14. beesmn Registered Member

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    We are encumbered with so many predispositions from our specific upbringings. These fog our eyes from the reality that does exist, with or without our experience of it. It is clear that any one individual is not exposed to much of (the whole of) reality during any moment and therefore any lifetime. So we trial and error our way through life, not KNOWING from where we came or to where we ultimately go. I think it is also our bent to think that there are those who exist that can guide us through this fog. But they are human too and inevitably demonstrate the same. Any confidence in their pontifications drops to near zero. Therefore, we are runnning the maze without certainty. Those before us either fail in their attemps or succeed beyond our perception, leaving us in the same state of uncertainty. I wish it was not just so.
     
  15. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    how can reality be real without someone to say if its real or not?

    That's not the same question you asked earlier. Of course, if all sentient beings in the universe disappeared, no one would be here to conceive that idea. That does not make the universe any less of a reality. It would remain as is long after we're gone as it was long before we evolved.

    one earlier post spoke of believing the earth will rotate around the sun ect...
    because the fact that it has been for all this time so it is logicall to "belive" it will again tommorow.


    So what? That's totally different from life and death situations.

    something so complex as thoughts, personalities, and consciousness, cant be so easily lost. at least not in my reality.

    Perhaps your version of reality is not the reality. Sorry, but you can't equate those to matter and energy.

    even the particles that make up matter, can only be explained as a focused thought. even science will concede this fact.

    That is a fantasy, science concedes no such thing.

    so your input surely will effect reality. at least in my reality.

    Then your reality is clearly a fantasy.
     
  16. Serb05 Banned Banned

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    This thread in a few words: (a few more)

    If you never see/feel God, it's safe to say, you don't know if there is God.
    If you don't know if there is God, then you're stupid to believe in God.
    There is two theories to suggest how we came to be, 1) Materials/minerals have always been there and chemical reactions(or so i assume) resulted in all this, 2) God was always there(even though its unexplainable how he/she/it came to be) and he/she/it created the universe.

    A.k.a: Its all a bunch of questions there is no answers to(as of yet), and most probably questions that will never be answered, or at least not in our lifetimes.

    If you want to be on the safe side, do what i do(and enjoy doing) be nice, don't entirely disbelieve in god(as there is a chance he might exist) and live out your life. That way, if you die and there is God, you will most probably be forgiven and live out your existence in heaven. The only other thing that could happen is, you die and lose your conscience(better than burning in hell). Also, this way you don't need to bother about a religion's needs/requirments, e.g wearing towels on your head/eating juicy pork chops/ham/bacon(mmm.... bacon...).

    The End
     
  17. Serb05 Banned Banned

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    What i failed to mention was, not believing is less stressful and therefore not believing has it's advantages, and is therefore better.
     
  18. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    gratitude&love:

    What is this "kingdom of Heaven"?

    How do we rely on what others tell us to believe? And I would disagree with this Idealist notion that reality requires us to exist. Here's my argument against it:

    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=48082&page=1

    What proof do you have that we have a soul? Or that the observer is rooted in anything but the brain?

    But what proof?

    gratitude&love:

    But are the two blades of grass the same? What would make the two people the same?

    Yes, where have you got this notion that matter is "concentrated thought"? What proof do you have for this? What scientist said this?
     
  19. gratitude&love order's efficient,chaos likely Registered Senior Member

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    i'll just get my resources for some of my claims out of the way so i can, go with my thoughts on the "matter" at hand;jeffery satiover m.d.(psychiatry)
    m.s.(physics). former president of the jung foundation of new york, and william james lecturer in the psychology and religion at harvard university.

    john hagelin, ph.d, professer of physics, and director of the institute of science, technology and public policy at maharishi university. after he got his ph.d at stanford went to cern for particle research, whereafter joined the faculty of stanford, where his work was the deveopment of unified quantum theories. has about a hundred or so studies done in this area.
    but best known for his discovery of the supersymetric su5 grand unified field theory. also the author of "manual for a perfect government", and "physiology of consciousness".

    there are more, but lets just get to it shall we?
    kingdom of heaven, my view, you are in it, or in some of your cases, the bowels of hell. what ever you choose to make of your existance is your heaven or hell. and if you dont figure it out before your life cycle ends you either come back to try again or, continue evolving to the next stage.

    kinda like you cant be born an adult. untill your ready to be an infinite being youll keep cycling as an infant one.

    proof you say. sorry there are forces that science cant prove yet there effects are obvious. gravity. no, you cant prove why. you can explain what happens not why.

    also explain how one thing can be in two places at the same time, reffering to the light expieriment, i cant remember all the specifics of it. but if you are as intelligent and up to date as i think you are you already know of what i'm speaking of. if not let me know i'll look it up for you.

    show me where in the brain the observer is located.

    i can tell you that your brain and mine, and just about everyone on the planets brain, if examined would appear to be exact. and in that sense it is the same as a heart or any other organ in your body, yet, there is something that makes you feel unique, and makes you, you. show me where my observer is, remove it with an operation.

    no the grass blades arent the same but they share the past and without the first the second could not be.
    sorry i didnt read your link, i got to excited to debate i'll do it now.
    i am gratefull for you and your thoughts.
     
  20. gratitude&love order's efficient,chaos likely Registered Senior Member

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    the sensory knowledge, i dont agree with. this maybe the case with many, but there are those that create things theyve never seen. then there are those who cant see something untill someone creates it for them.
     
  21. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    gratitude&love:

    Okay.

    Okay.

    Fair enough, but what proof have you of this?

    Under a mandate of a higher being, or due to natural processes?

    Science "proves why" rather well. Mass warps space-time by its presence. There is also a big difference betwixt "The Kingdom of Heaven" and "gravity". You're making pretty fantastic claims with no proof, whilst gravity is demonstratable every wakign second.

    I know what you're talking about. However, thusfar this experiment is inconclusive, with some physicists, such as Hawking, saying that we might do well to just drop the notion that light is a particle at all, and speak of it only as a wave. Many other scientists have tried to tackle this in a great deal of ways, also.

    The observer seems most likely to be a gestaltean creation from the emergent behaviour of the brain's properties working in unison.

    Actually, on a microscopic level, brains are very different. Neural patterns grow in ways to accomodate what the brain is being used for in development and throughout the rest of one's life (but to a lesser extent). But anyway, as noted above, the observer seems well to be an emergent phenomena.

    Yes, but that second blade of grass is not likely to be made up of all the atoms of the first, or even a great deal of them, and it would seem that if it had even one, it was more an issue of blind chance and they'd be no true significance to this.

    I'm grateful for you and your thoughts, also.

    Define what you mean when you say "create things they've never seen". Would these things be comprised of things which could be inferred from prior sensory input? Like, for instance, a centaur is just a mix of a human torso with a horse body. Or do you mean that they've created an entirely different colour, like what I used as an argument there? Not a shade, mind you, but an actually different colour.
     
  22. gratitude&love order's efficient,chaos likely Registered Senior Member

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    how can reality be real without someone to say if its real or not?

    what question did i ask? sorry i dont get all my ideas from books, just the start of my ideas, otherwise your just feeling others thoughts.

    i dont mean to say you effect if the sun comes up or not.(although the more i expierience and remember, i wonder) but rather, you at any level of conciousness can at least effect your immediate surrondings. at various levels.

    here's something interesting, i thought. if you examine the brain activity of a person, and show them an object, they used an orange, a specific area in the brain will light up. now if you take the orange and tell them to now close their eyes and imagine the orange, the same area of the brain lights up. so what sees, the eyes or the brain? because you imagined that orange your brain sees it like it did with your eyes. your brain tells you what reality is there is much more out there that your eyes see that your brain does not process. so how can you be sure what reality is. and if you dont know precisesly what it is, then how can you be sure your not effecting it?
    maybe your brain just hasnt caught up yet.

    one earlier post spoke of believing the earth will rotate around the sun ect...
    because the fact that it has been for all this time so it is logicall to "belive" it will again tommorow.


    fine you see the grass grow after it dies so its logicall to believe it will continue to cycle.

    something so complex as thoughts, personalities, and consciousness, cant be so easily lost. at least not in my reality.

    so you are saying thoughts cant be measured as energy? maybe i'll let you think about that one before i address it.

    even the particles that make up matter, can only be explained as a focused thought. even science will concede this fact.

    with the use of a subatomic microscope, you would be able to examine an atom, you would find a nucleous orbited by electrons,but mostly space, it was belived that the nucleous would be made up of very dense matter.
    but it is not, the part i found interesting was that, it came in and out of existance so there really was no dense matter scientists could pinpoint(well i guess pinpoint would be rather large in this case). and thats when he made the statement it was more like a concentrated thought. (i changed it to focused cause thats the word that came to mind).
    so your input surely will effect reality. at least in my reality.

    read the book "the hidden messages in water" by, Masaru Emoto
    perhaps your idea on the power of your thoughts will change.

    your time and thoughts are appreciated
     
  23. gratitude&love order's efficient,chaos likely Registered Senior Member

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