For Every Action there is an Opposite and Equal Reaction

Don't you agree that it's POSSIBLE there is an equal and opposite reaction to everything we do? Also, given the complexity of human beings, as opposed to the some of the simple systems that physics deals with (force), don't you think that the equal and opposite reactions might not be so symmetrical from the obvious surface perspective?

I can give an obvious example that is a non-symmetrical equal but opposite reaction which creates a feedback loop: A guitar player plucks some strings on a guitar and the reaction is sound that is produced through an amplifier. No, contrary to what you might think, an anti-matter version of the guitar player plucking the string with the opposite hand does not come out of the amplifier. Upon hearing this he changes his next action - which is a feedback loop - and this goes on for as long as the guitarist wishes.

 

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It's an idea, but how do measure and quantify human actions/ reactions?
What value (in what units) does "me dating your sister" have?
And what exactly is the appropriate response/ reaction?
Is there only one possible reaction? Hardly.

So you're saying that "equal and opposite" when it comes to humans might not be?

False dichotomy: since it goes through an amp there are other considerations to take into account than simply guitar/ output.

:shrug:

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I'm saying equal and opposite when it comes to humans might not be symmetrical from the perspective we commonly use to look at things.

Okay, you don't want the amp? How about an acoustic guitar? You pluck the string and a sound comes out. The pluck was the action and the sound was the reaction - see, it's not symmetrical but still equal and opposite.

I was trying to show with the "anti-matter form of the guitarist plucking a string with the opposite hand" how ridiculous symmetrical equal and opposite reactions would look in certain phenomena.

 

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The neutrino was predicted to exist based solely on conservation laws. During beta decay there was a bit of momentum and energy which was unaccounted for, and for this reason Pauli created the neutrino. Lo and behold, several years later it was detected.

 

In other words not equal...

Nope, the sound isn't equal to the initial energy - there will be losses. The reaction is the motion of the string.

You were veering off at a tangent: how does introducing anti matter or the "other hand" illustrate the point (if there was one)?

 

Asymmetry can still be equal - or to make it a little more clear - something may be asymmetrical from one perspective but symmetrical from another.

Okay, even if you think the sound isn't the reaction... the vibration of the string is not a symmetrical reaction to the pluck from the pick but it is still an equal and opposite reaction. Input and output.

I was trying to think of the exact opposite of the act of someone plucking a string! The opposite of a person made of matter is a person made of antimatter and the opposite hand... like he was the mirror image - get it?

 

And your point would be...?
Newton's statement was about the forces involved, not their manifestation. E.g. Plucking a string induces movement in the string - it doesn't preclude the movement (or even indicate that a reaction should be movement).

Which does nothing to illustrate the point in contention. You were showing an "opposite action", not an opposite reaction. But it still come s down to an action leading to a reaction.

 

My point is this:

That there is probably an equal and opposite reaction to both of these things and probably every single action we make - including unconscious ones. We may think there isn't because the reaction isn't symmetrical from the perspective that we're viewing it from. This phenomenon is actually quite common in the study of chaos in non-linear systems. Picture two prisms (3 dimensional) exactly alike, they're tips pointing to each other to create a perfect symmetry - like an input and an output.

Like this:

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Now do you realize that there are many more angles (perspectives) that you can view the two prisms that are NOT symmetrical? Symmetry depends on perspective.

You don't think the vibration of the string is a reaction to the pluck?

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You say "probably". Why?

Specious twaddle.
Doesn't chaos theory (and especially catastrophe theory) show that there are tipping points where a small input leads to an overwhelmingly larger effect? Sort invalidates "equal" and opposite, doesn't it?
What evidence is there for equal and opposite reactions in human behaviour? What's the units of measurement?
Again: if I buy you a cup of tea what is the equal and opposite reaction?

That's not what I said. I was querying the value (or even the point) of introducing anti matter and the "other hand". The ACTION is plucking the string. The REACTION is the vibration of the string. Anything else is extraneous.

 

I say probably in the knowledge that nothing can be known absolutely. The Theory of Relatively is also probably a correct description of the universe.

Cause and effect gets trickier the further you go into it. Those "tipping points" where output is magnified has a bunch of explanations. Firstly, to reach those tipping points they have to have been caused by what probably seemed insignificant at the time but if they led to the tipping point then they must have been significant, right? In reality it seems, all actions get magnified over time.

Here's how I look at the magnified effects. Just like seeds some float along through the air for a time before landing. Some land on stony ground and can't take root. Some get eaten by birds. But some land on dirt and take root - that's when the real growth starts (magnified effects). Naturally, some environments are more conducive to the growth of some actions than others - just as some soils are better for some plants than others.

So while the reactions might seem disproportionate or random, this is just a misunderstanding. Reactions can grow and this in no way refutes opposite and equal reaction - it's just more complex than many of us imagine.

 

Specious comparison. What evidence is there for the "equal and opposite" principle applying to human behaviour?

No, that's why it's called "catastrophe theory".

In other words "equal and opposite" doesn't apply.

That's your claim: evidence?

Ho hum. New age wishful "thinking". What evidence is there?

 

Lol, of course you take what I say completely out of context and just attack the conclusions in isolation... you didn't even mention the seed analogy.

Where is the evidence that human behavior is affected by equal and opposite reaction? Hmmm... namely that the entire rest of the universe is dictated by it!! :bugeye:

Equal and opposite still does apply... My action has an equal and opposite reaction - you still following? - and then that reaction is subject to further reactions with other things - like the seed finding soil - which causes the reaction of growth. How are you not understanding this!!??

 

Because your "conclusions" are based on nothing.

Because it was nonsense.

Really? Where? How?

Because you're talking rubbish: how are human behaviours equal or opposite to whatever engendered them? Go back to my "cup of tea" question and try answering that.
Is it possible for someone to decide NOT to react to someone's actions? Is it possible to OVER-react to someone's actions? Those examples alone should show that "equal and opposite" does NOT apply.

 

Talking to you is like throwing seeds in a desert.

 

Hardly. You are being just plain silly by trying to introduce philosophical metaphors into a scientific (physics, to be precise) discussion. :shrug:

For example - what is the opposite reaction to a bird dying in the forest? What is the opposite reaction of deciding to have tuna on rye instead of ham on wheat?

Those examples compare perfectly with what you've been saying - and they are pure nonsense from a scientific perspective!!! So get over it and move along to something else.

 

That would because your "seeds" are devoid of any rational value.

 

Learning

Just fascinating to read the exchanges between people who have such unique convictions on getting to "the point" which is difficult to define sometimes. Those of you with the skillful discipline to only use scientific methods and theories for dialogue is remarkable. I respect that you don't let the emotional, random, generalized perspectives pull you away from that. Trying to merge generalized concepts such as 'isn't this theory applicable to all interactions between human beings' does not seem like a scientific question, it's more like trying to take a recipe for how to make a cake and say, can't you make stir fry with this as well? Technically, yes you could, but it would not taste like stir fry is supposed to. Meaning, you may have the method and theory down, but the ingredients you use to create an outcome must be very specific and paticular. I love the thought of using the application of physics to connect certain concepts of life experience together (if i give you $100 dollars, push on a wall, etc) but trying to interweave them into scientific formulas may not be the best way to go about making sense of them. Although the concepts are accurate, but realistically (scientifically) they are not interchangeable. I just joined this conversation a year and a half late...wonder if I'm just writing to myself? ha.