For anyone who likes to attack christianity as "blind faith"

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Mr. Hamtastic, Nov 8, 2008.

  1. Mr. Hamtastic whackawhackado! Registered Senior Member

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    I wanted to share this with you.

    Christianity is for Weak, Stupid People? - The Role of Reason for Christians
    by Rich Deem
    IntroductionMany skeptics think that Christianity is for people who do not want to think. Christians are often characterized as people who believe whatever they are told by the church. Faith is thought of as something that one believes blindly - with no supporting evidence. However, this viewpoint does not represent biblical Christianity. In contrast, to what many skeptics believe, the Bible challenges its readers to test it and come to a reasonable conclusion. There are those Christians who believe blindly, and certain cults (such as Mormonism) teach that truth can be known through prayer. These ideas are heretical to biblical Christianity and often lead to deception, making such individuals susceptible to conversion by the cults.

    Test everything. Hold on to the good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

    What does the Bible teach?Contrary to what many non-believers think, the Bible does not teach blind faith. In fact, the Bible actually tells believers to test everything.1 No other "holy" book tells its readers to actually put what it says to the test. The Bible can make such a statement because it passes the tests of truthfulness that no other "holy" book can. God Himself in His revelation to Isaiah stated, "Come now, and let us reason together..."2 God, the Creator of humans and human reasoning ability3 wants us to use that ability to determine His plan of salvation. How do we determine if the Bible is true? We test it and see if it is reasonable. Psalm 19 tells us that the universe "declares the glory of God" and that this "voice goes out into all the earth."4 This site is dedicated to showing how the universe declares God's love and design. In fact, the Bible says that the evidence for God's design of the universe is so strong that people are "without excuse" in rejecting God and His plan of salvation.5

    The importance of the mind in the life of believers and non-believers
    The Bible encourages people to use their minds. In fact, the Bible says that God created humans and endowed them with a mind so that they would use it.6 The Bible says that God and Jesus Christ will test the minds (as well as the hearts) of people.7 One of the most important prophecies to Christianity, the prophecy of the New Covenant,8 fulfilled in the coming of the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth,9 describes the changes God does in both the heart and the mind of those who are transformed.10 The Bible says that those who do not believe do so, in part, because of deception in their minds.11 This deception leads to hostility to God and defiling of their minds and consciences.12 The mind is also very important in the life of a Christian. The Christian is encouraged to set his "mind on the things above."13 We are also encouraged to direct our "mind to know, to investigate, and to seek wisdom and an explanation."14 Christians should use their minds in all aspects of life15 and "always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have."16 We are to use our minds to experience the reality of the Holy Spirit in order to experience His peace.17 This peace of God, "which surpasses all comprehension" guards both our hearts and our minds.18 Even the act of worship (both prayer and singing) should involve both the spirit and the mind.19

    The mind of the prudent acquires knowledge, And the ear of the wise seeks knowledge. (Proverbs 18:15)


    The Bible encourages people to acquire knowledge
    The book of Proverbs in the Old Testament gives practical advice for living, raising children, and making good choices versus bad choices. Many of the verses discuss the importance of acquiring knowledge and wisdom,20 even to the degree of choosing knowledge over riches.21 Faith is of utmost importance to the Christian. But the Bible doesn't say to limit your belief to faith alone. In fact, it commands us to add first moral excellence then second knowledge.22 Daniel, one of the greatest examples of faith, who had an amazing prayer life, was also a man of great knowledge and intelligence, and used this ability to witness to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.23 Solomon, in his prayers to God, asked for wisdom and knowledge, both of which God granted to him.24

    Biblical faith is based upon knowledge and sound doctrine
    God wants believers to be knowledgeable, especially regarding their faith. A lack of knowledge leads to apostasy and destruction, as God Himself said to Hosea, "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge."25 A zeal for God is not sufficient to please Him, since many Jews have this zeal, although it is misplaced since it is "not in accordance with knowledge."26 The Bible encourages believers to have a knowledge-based faith, built upon sound biblical doctrine.27 When Paul preached the gospel, he did it through reasoning from the scriptures and not an appeal to blind faith.28 Paul, in his letters told believers to do away with childish thinking and reasoning.29 Christians are advised to set an example for others in teaching by modeling "integrity, seriousness, and soundness of speech."30 The physician Luke, in his prologue to his gospel revealed that he determined the truth through careful investigation:

    ...it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you might know the exact truth about the things you have been taught. (Luke 1:3-4)
    Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'" (Matthew 22:37)31

    What did Jesus teach?Jesus extended the first of the ten commandments to love the Lord not only with our hearts and souls,32 but also our minds.33 Jesus almost always taught using parables and examples. He did this specifically so that people would think about what He was saying. In fact, in many instances, Jesus would ask people what they thought of what He said.34 When Jesus was resurrected from the dead, he explained the scriptures to his disciples and "opened their minds" so that they could see how He fulfilled the messianic prophecies.35

    Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD (Isaiah 1:18)36

    Conclusion The Bible teaches a rational faith, based upon knowledge and refined through testing. Christians are encouraged to use their minds in all aspects of life, including our spiritual life - prayer and worship. God values truthfulness to a high degree and wants us to know the truth about his creation, the nature of His being and His scriptures. Ultimately, God wants all people to come to the knowledge of the truth of His salvation through Jesus Christ,37 so that they may spend eternity with Him in the new creation.

    This is the best explanation I have seen.
     
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  3. mis-t-highs I'm filling up Registered Senior Member

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    Lol.
    How can you reason a fantasy.
    Lol.
     
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  5. PsychoticEpisode It is very dry in here today Valued Senior Member

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    Saul wants 100 foreskins. I believe it was the price of dating his daughter. So David kills 100 guys, it may have been more, and Saul is one happy papa.

    Is this testable? What is the reasonable conclusion?

    Jesus is starving. He finds a fig tree with no fruit. He takes it out on the tree.

    Same questions

    If your going to have any faith in the bible then it should be complete faith.

    No picking and choosing as 'holding on to the good' suggests. Statements such as that imply that the Bible is not all good and is very subjective. What's good for one is not good for another......impossible to reason.

    Does everything connected with holy books need to be a goddamn riddle?
     
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  7. Myles Registered Senior Member

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    " Get ye to the Lake of Fire ! Paul to the Haemoglobins
     
  8. cato less hate, more science Registered Senior Member

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    well, christains are very hard to argue with. biblical teachings and the two testaments say so many things, many of which are contradictory, that it is easy to "pick and choose" an interpretation that fits what you are looking for. this thread is a perfect example. it is a demonstration of the power of the christian meme.

    don't get me wrong, my above statements are riddled with logical fallacy (a red herring being the most obvious), thus the conclusion from the first post has not been refuted. however, I think that Mr. Hamtastic's premise is so obviously false that attempting to argue against it is a waste of time.

    I shouldn't be so hard on Hamtastic, it's obviously not his argument that I am criticizing, but rather the argument of an unnamed website from which it was taken

    good day
     
  9. Mr. Hamtastic whackawhackado! Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry, didn't mean to plagiarize. Rich Deem got the credit as the writer. I just wanted to offer his words for consideration.
     
  10. cato less hate, more science Registered Senior Member

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    yes, sorry, I took back the word plagiarism from my post after I read yours a second time, and noted that you said "I wanted to share this with you." by which you implied that you took it from another source. (though you still didn't cite them)

    the problem with the whole article you posted is that the burden of proof is on those who posit something's existence. therefore, any (and I mean ANY) faith that a god exist is counter to (or blind to) the best mechanisms humans have devised to tell truth from untruth, namely logic and evidence. therefore, belief in a god is blind faith. furthermore, the belief in anything that is unproven is, by definition "blind faith."
     
  11. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    Any god not ready to exist is not ready to be worshipped.
     
  12. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    20,685
    One of the worst explanations I've ever seen. Deem is a brainwashed moron.
     
  13. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    I can't help but wonder what you and the others think about such things as "love" and "compassion" and "empathy" and such other human emotions?

    I mean, when someone says that they "love" someone, do you seek evidence for it and logic to analyze it? Oh, sure, there might be something you can call "evidence" if you want, but is it evidence of "love"? A mother might treat her child with outward signs of affection and caring, but is that "love" or just ordinary affectionate signs in the same way a boy might "love" his dog?

    Where is the logic and evidence of "love" and other emotions?

    Baron Max
     
  14. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    6,226
    Okay, sounds great. Let's see.

    1. Talking snakes.
    2. Talking plants.
    3. People surviving in the stomachs of whales for extended periods.
    4. People magically conjuring food from thin air.

    Hmm, none of that sounds reasonable to me.

    It's amazing how seemingly-intelligent christians will do mental gymnastics to convince themselves that their beliefs are "reasonable." I mean, talking snakes? People living in the stomach of a whale? We're talking about the sort of absurd fairy-tale stuff that we make up to amuse young children.
     
  15. Mr. Hamtastic whackawhackado! Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry, I can't remember what I searched for now that brought me there. LOL

    Anyway, so could you tell me why belief in the existence of atoms without physically seeing one is better than belief in God?

    Logic that starts with God is no less logic than if it starts with Nature.

    What are theories anyway? Does the bible say to do something that can't be tested today? Sure, there are some situational things, but just as I can't remember the name of that website, a new situation may lead to a new task of necessity, or a new command from God, should He decide to give one.
     
  16. cato less hate, more science Registered Senior Member

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    firstly, this is a strawman argument. I never said that love wasn't blind faith. secondly, it is an appeal to ignorance.

    your argument flys in the face of the field of brain science, and seems to discount the entire field of psychology. therefore, I believe you should rethink this counter argument.
     
  17. cato less hate, more science Registered Senior Member

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    atoms can be observed, modeled, and their behavior is predictable. additionally, we do physically see them. why do you think we don't?

    false, nature is observable, capable of being modeled, and predictable.

    I don't understand what you are saying here
     
  18. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Huh? Calling something a "strawman" argument doesn't answer the question ...it simply sidesteps it, that's all.

    Do you "believe" in human emotions? And if so, what evidence do you have to support that belief? It seems to me that a belief in "love", and other human emotions, is not much different to the belief in god.

    Baron Max
     
  19. Mr. Hamtastic whackawhackado! Registered Senior Member

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    Cato-I have never seen one, myself. I'm told that everything I see is made up of them, but I've never seen an atom, myself. Should I choose to have faith in what I am told about the existence of Atoms?
     
  20. cato less hate, more science Registered Senior Member

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    calling it a strawman points out that the argument about emotions has nothing to do with the argument about god... and is thus, a sidestep from the original argument.

    additionally, I think it is obvious that emotional reactions can be observed, though it may be difficult. i don't feel like hunting down journals on neuroscience for this argument.

    this argument is likely the one that irritates me more than any other. just because there is a phenomenon that we cannot easily observe does not mean that all/any things that are unobserved are real. each phenomenon must be evaluated separately.
     
  21. cato less hate, more science Registered Senior Member

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    atomic theory has been studied for 200 years (unless you count the greeks). we have extensive physical and mathematical representations that have been thoroughly tested. we can predict, with extreme precision, the behavior of matter. this ability to model and predict is the evidence for atoms. the only faith you must have, is that the scientific community is not lying to you.

    just because you must rely on information from others does not mean that all things that people tell you are to be treated with equal accuracy.
     
  22. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    4,207
    As was recently pointed out it should be: Theism is for Weak, Stupid People.
     
  23. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    And so is "love" and "compassion" for weak, stupid people. But lots of people claim to feel or believe in them.

    Baron Max
     

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