"Feed me a paradox and I will explode!"

Well, then ignore them. What is their hook for you? They could say that stuff to me until they are blue in the face and it does not attach to me.

'Solely' being the key word. I think it is fine to begin with other motivations, to come to Christianity to solve one's problems or whatever. For every Christian there is another Christian who thinks the first will not get to heaven because of the first one's attitude, church, goals, ability to notice sin, misinterpretations and so on.

You don't have to answer it here, but the question really, to me, is why don't you ignore them? If the answer is abstract, about what might be true, that is putting the answer outside you. There is a reason they have their hooks in you and the place where they attach is the important focus, not what might be true or what they might say in reaction to you.

Insufficient answer: this means we could sin. To not trust yourself is much more fundamental. We are talking about distrusting one's own mind, intentions, intuition, etc.

That's what the Muslims say about the Koran. (Actually, I believe many Muslims are rather respectful of the Bible and Jesus and Moses, but that's another story).
How can I trust myself to know if you are right about the Bible? You did not talk about me. You talked about something other than me.

My heart is led by God. But you said I couldn't trust myself. I can trust my heart now?

here's one place there is just no hook at all for me. I love the earth too much. If they want to see that as sinful, then I am sinful. End of discussion. I can't wait until they get their reward.

So you trust yourself.

Then you are involved. Essentially, on some level, you believe them or some of their ideas about you. I did not expect for one second that I would come up with responses that would stun most Christians into some introspection or doubt. Not for a second. If the answers you gave me 'work' on you in some way - IOW you feel a compulsion to refute them, then on some level you believe.

You are not, I presume, hooked into mental torture with hypothetical discussions with Hindus or Mulsims etc.

I guess I am suggesting you take full responsibility for your participation the monkey on your back.

One suggestion: you could release whatever judgements - mental thought forms - that are holding this in place - by saying the opposite.

I no longer believe I cannot trust myself. I now believe I can trust myself.

The point of this is NOT NOT NOT to reprogram your brain like it is an affirmation.

I find that if I do this all the emotions around, under and with that judgement come rushing up. Fears about daring to say this OUT LOUD, perhaps in the mirror. If you are willing to go into the fears around letting go of the beliefs and whatever other feelings that are there you might make a shift. Of course, given some of our discussions in the past, I doubt you will be drawn to this approach. It is, in any case, a part of what I do. A formal release of the judgement. And then expression of the emotions that come up, making sounds in whatever form and however loud I feel I can or need to. Sometimes of course, especially with fear, the sounds can be rather soft.

The Christians, both real and imagined, can help you find your judgements of yourself, the universe, what must be etc. They reflect back to you judgements you have of yourself. I am not saying they are simply mirrors, but they can be used that way. Unless you are locked in a cult basement somewhere they are no longer the issue. You are.

I realize I keep dragging this back to the personal and you would like it to be more universal. But aren't you being essentialist here or at least a non-constructivist? Different people will have the removed via different 'methods'. There isn't a 'dehooking device. There are different processes of disentanglement and your specific case needs a particular approach.

I'd be tempted now to explore things like: what would happen if you simply stopped focusing on the issue? (a first probe to see what judgements there are) Or: What makes you think they might be right about you?

Given that my reaction will keep dragging it back to the personal, it might be best if I let some air in by stepping away from the thread for a while. Maybe others will have universal answers or other approaches that work. I'll check back after a few days or a week or if I see the thread stops.

 

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Exactly right, and people do it to children on purpose.

 

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