Fall of the US

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Da Vinci, Mar 11, 2006.

  1. AmishRakeFight Remember, remember. Registered Senior Member

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    I agree; In fact, I said that exact same thing a little higher up in the conversation:

    AmishRakeFight
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2006
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  3. Light Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry - I must have run down the thread too quickly. I'd venture to guess that the obnoxious little "empire" twit was probably counting parts of the high-seas as "controlled" territory.

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  5. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

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    Oh come on, Light! I’ve always credited you with more intelligence than that. The USA does not openly declare itself to be an Empire, and it’s not fair to argue that the USA wants to “rule the world”. But surely you’re not going to sit there and try to argue that the USA doesn’t actively and stridently shape numerous other countries and world affairs to its own selfish end? The political assassinations, the overt and covert support of various sides in conflicts (which has often shifted from side to side) and the invasions are not the actions of an empire? Are you going to try to tell me that these are not the actions of a bloodthirsty two-timing self-centred empire…………..?

    1953
    US overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran. US installs Shah as dictator.

    1954
    US overthrows democratically elected President Arbenz of Guatemala. 200,000 civilians killed.

    1963
    US backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.

    1963-1975
    American military kills 4 million people in South East Asia.

    Spetember 11, 1973
    US stages coup in Chile. Democratically elected President Salvador Allende assassinated. Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed. 5,000 Chileans murdered.

    1977
    US backs military rulers in El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorans and four American nuns killed.

    1980’s
    US trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets. CIA gives them $3 billion.

    1981
    Regan administration trains and funds “Contra” rebels. 30,000 Nicaraguans die.

    1982
    US provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.

    1983
    White House secretly gives Iran weapons to kill Iraqis.

    1989
    CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington. US invades Panama and removes Noriega. 3,000 Panamanian civilian casualties.

    1990
    Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from US.

    1991
    US enters Iraq. Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait.

    1998
    Clinton bombs “weapons factory” in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making aspirin.

    1991-present
    American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis. UN estimates 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombing and sanctions.

    2000-2001
    US gives Taliban-ruled Afghanistan $245 million in “aid”.
     
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  7. Light Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry to have to disappoint you.

    Yes, to the best of my knowledge, each of those actions took place as described. However, each was for the purpose of influence and none for the purpose of gaining territory. In fact, no territory WAS gained in any of them - which is usually the goal of any "empire" in history that I've ever read about.
     
  8. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    That's beating around the bush, HR. "Empire" is a word commonly used to describe more than expansionistic monarchies. The same goes for "imperial" and "imperialistic". The present imperialistic intervention Iraqis are enduring is highly comparable to those of the past.

    Empire-(n.)

    1. lands ruled by single authority: a group of nations, territories, or peoples ruled by a single authority, especially an emperor or empress

    2. monarchy headed by emperor or empress: a monarchy that has an emperor or empress as its ruler

    3. period of empire's existence: the period during which an empire exists

    4. large far-flung business: a very large, powerful, and extensive industrial or commercial organization

    5. part of organization somebody personally controls: a part of an organization controlled by a single person, especially somebody who is keenly protective of personal power

    6. absolute power: supreme or absolute power ( formal or literary )
     
  9. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Herc is correct. You are arbitrarily requiring "Empires" to occupy someone else's territory. (A few months ago, someone was equally arbitrarily requiring empires to have a designated person as "Emporia.")

    Modern empires should not occupy other's land as even low-IQ GWB has now learned in Iraq, because this is expensive in the era of "gorilla war." - Much better to set up a puppet government to server your empire and leave the messy details of controlling population the puppet government. (GWB is so inept that he has not been able to set a firm puppet government up in Iraq for this job.)

    These local agents of the empire typically are military men. I.e. dictators like in Pakistan, who are very happy to do the empire's work for a some of the empire's older military equipment. (They like these toys because a few extra tanks etc. are useful for closing Congress and packing it with your supports prior to reopening it, for exiling significant opposition leaders prior to a new election, for shutting down unfavorable newspaper, etc.) If these things are quietly done, as all were in Pakistan, then GWB can still claim to be “supporting the development of democracy in the middle east.”

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  10. Silas asimovbot Registered Senior Member

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    It is true to say that America is not an Empire on the old European model. The reason for this is the still-continuing parochialism on the part of the average American citizen. America has no rest-of-the-world facing "Empire Builders" in the way that France, Holland and finally Britain did. An Edwardian-era Sherlock Holmes story (The Three Students) climaxes with the misguided student who had been caught cheating in an exam, determined to make amends by "joining the South African Police". Do you know what happened to the Tolpuddle Martyrs, transported to Australia for their seditious behaviour, after they were vindicated and released from bondage? They emigrated to Canada. Making one's fortune somewhere else in the world was second nature in those days.

    The fact is, of course, that European empire-builders were motivated by having a far greater prospect of prosperity, wealth and power in the colonised country than they could ever hope for at home. Any working class or lower-middle-class person living in a tenement or at most a small terraced house in England, could go to India and, practically, live like a Prince, servants included. And this simply does not apply in America, the country where almost everybody lives at a level of affluence undreamt of anywhere else in the world.

    Nonetheless, of course, America does dominate the world, and pretty much gets to enforce its agenda even on its closest allies, let alone enemy nations. And the question is, when is this domination going to end, and who will take over?

    The really important thing about this is not just America losing its domination. America is the last place there is for such domination to occur - in the West. America -> Britain, France, Holland and Germany -> Rome and Ancient Greece, and even Egypt - these were the foundation stones of the dominant form of civilisation on the globe. Now there is nobody in the West to hand the torch over to. For the first time in millennia, "our" decline is the advantage of a totally different hemisphere. And that, of course, means China.

    The irony of course is that the entire thrust of the history of the past two centuries - barely a minute in the history of civilisation - is what is precipitating us towards that precipice, because America and the Western World has become totally dependent on a commodity - oil - which is not limitless and, with consumption increasing exponentially, is just going to run out. The democratic, individualist, capitalist, business and industry based model for our civilisation is what has held up essential development of new fuel sources. But the enforced husbanding of resources is second nature to China which has a monolithic, corporatist interventionist government with which it has had to impose strict controls on its ginormous population.

    We'd all be well-advised to start learning Chinese. The end of Western civilisation is less than half a century away.
     
  11. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I do not know that Holmes story or about the Tolpuddle Martyrs, but assume you are correct about them, as I agree with all else you said, except for your time scale in:
    I think China will be the dominant economy in MUCH less than 50 years. Also I have no intention to learn Mandrin. Being older (and wiser?), I have a more simple and very certain plan to cope with Chinese domination of the world: Before China has US as agricultural colony, etc. I will die.

    PS - As GB Shaw observed: In the long run, we all can cope with the Chinese Empire this way.

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    I also want to note that you did not start your list of Empires, illustrating the drift of the Empire state westward, correctly. It began in China and soon will have circled the globe. Perhaps in year 3000+ North America will again be on top?

    If this westward drift is a valid principle of human systems, then one explanation might be that the sun sets in the west and rises later as you go west. That is the more privledged people, like to get up late and stay up late, so Darwin is at work here too as they generally are those with the most power and replace their less fit cousins to the East.

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    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2006
  12. RoyLennigan Registered Senior Member

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    its called neo-colonialism. interactions of more developed countries (UN) and the overall morality of modern society has prevented any kind of established country from simply going in and taking the land they want. so the people in charge try to turn the influence in those countries to their favor. its pretty much the same thing as creating a US colony, only without the labels. territory was not gained officially, but it was gained in the sense that the people that live there became influenced by US actions for US purposes (whether they knew it or not).
     
  13. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    In the internet age, they know it!
     
  14. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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  15. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    It's gratifying that Billy T writes most of what I've been thinking. Back to lurking...
     
  16. android nothing human inside Registered Senior Member

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    The real reason the USA is going to fall is the declining intelligence of its population. People are getting lazier, fatter, and less likely to get educated. The people who make it big are the mindless drones, not the heroes or inventors or artists. There is no culture left, as it has been replaced by pop culture. The cities are rotting and violent, the industry in decline, military and politics unstable.

    The USA doesn't have long left. RIP USA
     
  17. AmishRakeFight Remember, remember. Registered Senior Member

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    What does body weight have to do with intelligence??

    AmishRakeFight
     
  18. Da Vinci Impossible is nothing Registered Senior Member

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    I agree to what your saying to an extent. Yes people are getting fatter, lazier, but they are getting an education, just not a college one (though what’s an education if you don’t have a college degree?). True most people who make it are the ones who follow all the rules all the time and never think outside of the box. Our culture in a way has become the pop culture. Some cities are rotting others are thriving but all are violent. The industry in decline is just part of the business cycle and will rebound. The military and government are staying stable for now but barely and how long will that last?

    The US will fall from two fronts; internal and external.
     
  19. G. F. Schleebenhorst England != UK Registered Senior Member

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    2,213
    I stopped reading at "Webster".

    Look what Noah Webster did to the English language. Noah Webster is the reason americans can't fucking spell anything.

    Use a proper dictionary.
     
  20. G. F. Schleebenhorst England != UK Registered Senior Member

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    There's a map floating around on this forum of the British Empire at its peak. Like I said, I didn't make up that statistic, but 25% or not, as far as we know there has never been a bigger empire.
     
  21. Hurricane Angel I am the Metatron Registered Senior Member

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    We all know the United States will do this, that's why we're here in this forum. But what about the (dare I say it?) brainwashed American public, who absolutely need to understand that America is just another country and isn't that special.
     
  22. Hurricane Angel I am the Metatron Registered Senior Member

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    Hey light, do you need to directly control a territory in order to gain anything from it?
     
  23. Light Registered Senior Member

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    Of course not. There's indirect control AND there's also cooperation. And the latter has a lot more benefits than many seem to realize.
     

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