# Existence and Non-existence are one

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by Fork, Sep 16, 2013.

1. ### ForkBannedBanned

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319
This is the general idea behind Taoism. Where the opposites unite without ceasing to be themselves, a phrase known as Coincidentia Oppositorum (coincidence of opposites). Another phrase is Complexio Oppositorum (union of opposites). The merging of these polar opposites implies that the universe and the non-universe is a Tao.

3. ### taoist11Registered Senior Member

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49
No. Yin combines with yang is Oneness. Yin causes yang & vice versa, therefore, the combination of yin & yang is Oneness or Tao (Dao). As in Tao, yin is not purely yin, but yang and yang is not purely yang, but there is yin inside yang, we have Tao chaotic (like Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu often said). Since Tao is chaotic, it has 2 sides: Being (existence, everythingness) and non-being (non-existence, nothingness). I live, breathe, eat, love, give births etc , so I am being, but I am not a saint (goodness, yang) nor a criminal (badness, yin); not yin nor yang, I am non-being. Only the enlightened people see non-existence, the unenlightened don't see nothingness. Taoism states like Buddhism: Everything, everybody are nothingness, or we can say, all are multi-directional, never go only bad (yin) nor only good (yang).

To reach enlightenment is to see yin and yang combine into Oneness, & after that, the enlightened see everything is both in being and nonbeing. To believe anyone talking about Taoism, we have this point to check. If he hasn't seen non-being, he only remembers books to speak, not enlightenment in himself. Not using enlightenment to talk, he would be a person that hasn't drunk tea but talks about tea! Another very important problem is we can check if he loves his enemies even when the enemies threaten to kill him (the same with Jesus, but taoists do that easily) because he sees the killing (everythingness) is nothingness, not fixed characteristics, or like Buddhism, the killing is impermanent.

5. ### Magical RealistValued Senior Member

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11,869
Being is dynamic, dialectical, and relational. It is the evolving change that arises from the interaction of the passive and the active, the concrete and the abstract, the actual and the possible, and the subjective and the objective. It is the merging/emerging of substance and form, presence and absence, order and chaos, and space/time and matter/energy.Taoism got it right in that it can't possibly be named. It simply is and is ongoing, unfurling all things and properties from its own incandescent vortex of infinitely creative novelty.

7. ### taoist11Registered Senior Member

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The key problem is enlightenment.

You can say anything, but all you say are not different from Tao; say it in another words, what you write can be applied to reach enlightenment, making us become a kind of Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Lieh Tzu. Would you please describe your enlightenment? The enlightened are always "right", while the unenlightened sooner or later will become wrong. If the unenlightened talk about Taoism, it is like one hasn't drink tea but keeps talking about tea!

8. ### Magical RealistValued Senior Member

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11,869
I don't know that I AM enlightened. I just feel like this is the limit of what can be described. Saying pressed to the threshold of what cannot be said. From my own experience, this "tao" or "being/becoming" designates the ultimate principle--the core of the real from which all comes into being and to which all goes back to nothing. The Buddhist concept of impermanence is implicit here---that nascence and finality interweave together into the very fabric of being. Embrace whatever arises, and then let it go. This is the rhythm of all the universe.

9. ### taoist11Registered Senior Member

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Enlightenment first.

You are not enlightened because enlightenment is a basic, thorough, comprehensive deliverance;when enlightened, you would feel happy completely. Before enlightenment, one hates their enemies, but after enlightenment, one loves their enemies, very strong, very different. For whatever doctrines they learn, which are practical are the universal truth. Extremely "good" doctrines that lead to no practical results, we don't follow. The practical in Taoism is that we love our enemies, we require evil with good as Lao Tzu, Buddha, Jesus said. If not, we're loser; we don't learn Taoism the furthest points, all we say are just repeating Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, not from Tao inside us. To return like for like is unenlightened. Be awake! If you don't feel you love your enemies from a second to the whole life, you would be an ordinary guy, nothing special: they may read Lao, Chuang like you and talk about Taoism like you easily.

10. ### (Q)Encephaloid MartiniValued Senior Member

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19,125
That might be effective for those who see enemies everywhere, like the religiously indoctrinated. Other than that, who cares?

11. ### taoist11Registered Senior Member

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49
The enlightened see goodness & badness clearly.

People who see enemies everywhere would be mad, not enlightened ones. In practice taoistic meditation, taoists see, know yin (the hatred) and yang (friends) clearly. But being (everythingness, existence) is non-being (nothingness, non-existence). Being is what exists in the world, even thoughts, doctrines, actions, cars, cities, countries etc; being is nonbeing, this means enemies are non-being, i.e enemies have no attachments, impermanent (Buddhism says the same, interesting, the two doctrines are close). Before 1975, US & Vietnam were enemies, but now, the two countries are friends. Perceive this, perceive this non-existence as US is impermanent, you would be enlightened. The key point is enlightenment, & in Taoism, that's to perceive Oneness. Oneness is Tao. Then what is Tao? Tao is the combination of yin & yang. Yin is what negative (badness, failure, poorness,ect) and yang is what positive (goodness, victories, richness). Example:

Confucius was very "great". He ruled his state very well, soon, his state became powerful. But neighbour states were scary as his country infringed them, consequently, those neighbours wanted to harm Confucius. So we have greatness is badness, ok, never goodness is pure goodness, ok? In general, we Easterners say yin is yang & vice versa.
Let's talk more about Confucius: 2. The king of So state wanted to nominate Confucius to be the ruler of an area of land which had 700 ly (a ly was a group of 25 families). The head of officials of So was Tu Tay asked:

- Among your messengers you send to other states, is there anyone as good as Tu Cong ?
- No
- Among people helping you, is there anyone as good as Nhan Hoi ?
- No.
- Among your generals, is there anyone as good as Tu Lo ?
- No.
- Among your officials, is there anyone as good as Te Du ?
- No
- Not only that, ancestors of So state was appointed only the title ï¿½viscountï¿½ and fifty miles of land (meaning So state had been small and had only been viscount, but at the moment, was a powerful state). Now Confucius follows The Three Kingï¿½s laws. If we use him, how can So has thousands of miles of land forever? Van Vuong in Phong land, Vu Vuong in Cao Land were only kings having hundred miles of land, but lastly, they became emperors. Now, Confucius has a piece of land to make a base, and he has good disciples (Tu Cong, Nhan Hoi, Tu Lo, Te Du) to help. That is not blessing of So.
Chieu Vuong King stopped.
Confucius always fell into disfavour, because if he had had a small state, he would have ruled that state well. Other states would have followed him. Kings of big states, ambitious to be hegemony ï¿½ who king doesnï¿½t want himself to be ï¿½greatï¿½ ï¿½ so those kings would have been overturned. Confucius was so dangerous. Good conduct is dangerous and evil. Good for So state was bad for Confucius & vice versa.

This story gives us a lesson: badness is goodness & vice versa, or yin is yang & yang is yin. & the combination of the two makes Oneness, or Tao. Therefore, we have Tao is not yin clearly nor yang clearly but chaotic. Since Tao is chaotic, it has two sides: being & non-being. The unenlightened see only being. Only the enlightened see both. After enlightenment, one sees $is non-being; sees beautiful women are nonbeing; sees wonders are nonbeing, therefore, nothing, noone can seduce the enlightened. They would sees president Obama is lower than them as Obama has attachments. Eyes that can not tell beauty & ugliness apart are ill eyes. With me, stay in a close rooms, with a porn video, & naked beautiful girls, I am still calm, not hot, since I see them in both existence & nonexistence; or another interpretation is that I see those women are Tao, and Tao chaotic, hence the women are chaotic, not goes only one direction that they are extremely gorgeous when I stare at the screen. If say the opposite way that my libido is weak, then how? OK. I have a daughter, & my libido is about the average of Vietnamese men. Both ways, to have sex or not, I'm very calm, no Misses can seduce me. Before enlightenment, I could not claim this , & I loved to watch attractive women,thinking that all my life, I would be stuck with beauty. Suddenly, I had quick enlightenment after 12 years learning, thinking & meditating. Since then, my happiness comes from inside, not depends on a Miss, cars, houses, high salary, smart cute daughters, famed wines which are the external world. 12. ### Magical RealistValued Senior Member Messages: 11,869 I don't have any enemies that I know of. So I guess when it comes to enlightenment I'm shit out of luck.. 13. ### (Q)Encephaloid MartiniValued Senior Member Messages: 19,125 Most of your post was just word salad. I don't see enemies everywhere, I don't see enemies at all, so I don't need to be enlightened and those who do need enlightenment must be seeing enemies everywhere, based on your logic. Seems a little education could do just as well. 14. ### taoist11Registered Senior Member Messages: 49 Forgiving enemies is just one in a million things the enlightened can do. I am here to bring happiness to anyone wishing enlightenment to be happiest because nothing can compare with taoistic & budhistic deliverance. As I see people have money fixation, sexual fixation, villa fixation, private plane fixation, in general, they are unhappy, I bring freedom to them as J. Krishnamurti, Osho, Buddha, Lao Tzu did. 15. ### taoist11Registered Senior Member Messages: 49 To know if one is enlightened or not, that is based on reality. If one can change the way one treats others, for example, one loves his enemies easily, that person is enlightened. In the theory Taoism, first, that is we see ourselves, the world, our society, things have no firm characteristics. All those are multidimensional, or say it another words, they go every direction. We call this "nothingness". Then, in real life, a woman didn't pay my fee, I treated her the way I treated my siblings. I was pretty surprised as I would have sued her to bring her to the local officers; I had hated this woman before enlightenment. Another example was that my neighbour, a strong man, insulted me, I invited him a coffee, and a drink. Do you know why? That's because I perceive he was nothingness, no firm characteristics, not badness only. From a second to all my life, I treat people that way easily, that's "love your enemies", unlike before enlightenment, I returned life for like. Second, I teach Taoism easily, fluently, with any question in Taoism, never be stuck. I find out that Taoistic books Lao, Chuang are easy, unlike most of scholars say Lao, Chuang, Lieh Tzu are difficult! I'm not arrogant, please remember since those great founders said "Everybody is Tao", Everybody is equal. For me, too, I see I'm mixed with the society, not higher, more "valuable" than anybody as my mind is empty. Third, I apply Taoism into real life well & easily. Everything I do is Tao, as fish in water. Tao is chaotic, we deduce, everything, everyone are chaotic. As a result, I watch porn video with a group of cute naked hookers, I would be calm, not very hot as I perceive the porn & those good looking women are nothingness, multidimentional, not fixed goodness.If saying that I am disable in bed, one would fail as I have a cute daughter, 10 years old, and my libido is about average in Vietnam, this means I'm quite strong in bed. I can bet others the two ways: live with sex, ok; no sex, still ok! Fourth, I commit no sins as money, beautiful women, villas, private planes, finest wines, good laptops etc are nothingness, chaotic like Tao, not goodness only. Fifth, enlightened people (both in Taoism & Buddhism) don't get angry for what ever you say or do as they see your tricks, badness have no fixed characteristics, or non-being. 16. ### OblivionRegistered Member Messages: 11 You continue to talk about enlightenment but are you yourself actually enlightened Taoist11?If so how do you know you are enlightened and who told you what enlightenment is like? finally how do you know it's actual enlightenment becuase it could be something different. For example you tell someone what an orange looks and tasts like. that person then comes across a mandirin and eats it. That person could reasonably assume that the mandarin is a orange becuase it looks and tasts like it. But someone who has eaten an orange will no it's not an orange mearly a mandarin. Also could you please tell me who in taoism defines what a sin is? 17. ### river Messages: 11,554 And what is enlightening about non-existence ? 18. ### taoist11Registered Senior Member Messages: 49 Before enlightenment, I had been seduced by charming women easily, i.e, when in street, I had often looked at pretty women. But after enlightenment, I bet all my friends that if I am with gorgeous hookers with porn video, in a close room, I stare at the porn, but I am still calm, not get hot, & not have sex with those women. To have sex with them is ok, and not have sex with them, still ok, although my libido is about average, that means, I'm strong on bed.I have a daughter; I'm not disable. This is because I see in my mind & things that being (attractive hookers, the porn video) are non-being (not only a fixed way that is seducing, but they are multi-dimentional, or in Buddhism, they are impermanent). Second point: Su Dongpo was an avid student of Buddhist teachings. He was quick-witted and humorous; as a Zen Buddhism follower he was very serious and self-disciplined. He often discussed buddhism with his good friend, Zen Master Foyin. The two lived across the river from one another. Following is an interesting and famous story about him and Zen Master Foyin. One day, Su Dongpo felt inspired and wrote the following poem: I bow my head to the heaven within heaven, Hairline rays illuminating the universe, The eight winds cannot move me, Sitting still upon the purple golden lotus. The “eight winds (八风)” in the poem referred to praise (称), ridicule (讥), honor (誉), disgrace (毁), gain (得), loss (失), pleasure (乐) and misery (苦) – interpersonal forces of the material world that drive and influence the hearts of men. Su Dongpo was saying that he has attained a higher level of spirituality, where these forces no longer affect him. Impressed by himself, Su Dongpo sent a servant to hand-carry this poem to Fo Yin. He was sure that his friend would be equally impressed. When Fo Yin read the poem, he immediately saw that it was both a tribute to the Buddha and a declaration of spiritual refinement. Smiling, the Zen Master wrote “fart” on the manuscript and had it returned to Su Dongpo. Su Dongpo was expecting compliments and a seal of approval. When he saw “fart” written on the manuscript, he was shocked . He burst into anger: “How dare he insult me like this? Why that lousy old monk! He’s got a lot of explaining to do!” Full of indignation, he rushed out of his house and ordered a boat to ferry him to the other shore as quickly as possible. He wanted to find Fo Yin and demand an apology. However, Fo Yin’s door closed. On the door was a piece of paper, for Su Dongpo. The paper had following two lines: The eight winds cannot move me, One fart blows me across the river. This stopped Su Dongpo cold. Fo Yin had anticipated this hot-headed visit. Su Dongpo’s anger suddenly drained away as he understood his friend’s meaning. If he really was a man of spiritual refinement, completely unaffected by the eight winds, then how could he be so easily provoked? With a few strokes of the pen and minimal effort, Fo Yin showed that Su Dongpo was in fact not as spiritually advanced as he claimed to be. Ashamed but wiser, Su Dongpo departed quietly. This event proved to be a turning point in Su Dongpo’s spiritual development. From that point on, he became a man of humility, and not merely someone who boasted of possessing the virtue. Third: Before enlightenment, I respected my master Do (we live in Vietnam). But after that, because I perceive everybody, everything are non-being, I don't respect him any more, & not to Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Buddha, too. We see all farts are non-being, as a result, we don't feel angry when being teased, so, we talk as if we were enemies!! Others (my master's children) saw that, thought I was brash to Do, they wanted to teach me a lesson. I had to explain that Do was a kind of Buddha, everyone insulting him, he did not get mad. My neighbour, once threatened to hit me, I invited him a drink, his hatred disappeared. Fourth: I teach Taoism easily, because I am like a men who drank beer, then talk about beer. You may test me by posting the most difficult questions in Taoism, I'll answer you well. Not only teach about the theory, but also I give examples of me & other masters for practice. Fifth: Exchanging billions of$, great villas, deluxe private planes, fine wines, Misses the World to have a "yes" of me, one will surely failed if they want me to say:"Taoist11 is not non-being"!

... and many more. I can tell you much about how an enlightened in Taoism like.

About "sin", I don't have & don't need definitions. "sin" is the opposite of merit, credit. I'm practical. In real life, I call "sin" is what is bad, and they see it obviously. Check the word "sin" in dict is easy, I don't need to do because I start from reality.

19. ### taoist11Registered Senior Member

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49
First, enlightenment is Taoism is to see yin combines yang to form oneness in our brains, our minds. The unenlightened see only being, the enlightened see both. Tao has two sides existence (being, everythingness) and non-existence (nothingness, non-being) because Tao (Oneness, Tai Chi) is chaotic. For example, I am Tao, there for I am chaotic; I am neither good nor bad, or more generally, I am neither yin nor yang. I live, breathe, eat, learn, love, give birth (existence), but all those are not good (my children maybe spoiled,ect), nor bad; it goes multi-dimentionally, not a firm direction (non-existence).

In practice, don't meditate about non-existence, but meditate about inner struggles (yin & yang) is better. We reach enlightenment in real, normal life, not in holly world ! Remember this.