Evolution - True Or False

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by darksidZz, Feb 10, 2007.

?

It's

Poll closed Feb 25, 2007.
  1. False

    2.3%
  2. True

    88.4%
  3. Other; Comment

    9.3%
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  1. BenTheMan Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love Valued Senior Member

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    But we're not philosophers here

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  3. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    I think there was a "scientific" consensus on the Earth being flat at one time, wasn't there?

    I think scientists agreed that Thalidomide was a wonderful and perfectly safe drug at one time in the 50s and 60s.

    I think scientists have formed a consensus on lots and lots of things in the past that now have been proven to be completely fucked up.

    But, listen, as I've said, I'm pretty easy about all this bullshit .....you believe as you want, just let others believe what they want. Don't denigrate them for believing in ...little green men from Mars, or that the moon is made of cheese, or that big tits are better than small tits!

    Not about the issue, but about you and others trying to force your beliefs onto others. I don't think that's very nice of y'all, that's all. And it makes it even worse when y'all admit that you can't prove evolution. You might have a bunch of fossils, but then y'all make the leap of faith, and claim that creature 'x' evolved into creature 'y' ....and you do it with nothing but the two fossils. Those two creatures could have been just two different creatures ....not one evolving into the other.

    You believe what you wish, but please let others believe as they wish. Is that so much to ask of brilliant, highly intelligent, highly educated, rational individuals of the 21st century?

    Baron Max
     
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  5. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Ooooooohhhhhh, ya' mean one of those scientific theories has been .....dare I say the word .......discredited?? No, no, tell me it ain't so!!!

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    Perhaps 500 years from now, the theory of evolution will be ...ooooohhh, discredited??? Oh, my god, next ye're goonna' tell me that global warming was all a big mistake?! ...LOL!

    Baron Max
     
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  7. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

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    We also have the FACT that natural selection can and DOES occur. We have a proven process. Because of that, IMO it's not a great leap of faith as in, say, religion
     
  8. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    ...LOL! I love that ...hope ya' don't mind if I steal it.

    But you might give some added thought to the last line. He might just be tricking us all into THINKING that we'll go to hell ...when all along, he's planning a big party with plenty of booze and women and food!

    Baron Max
     
  9. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    What? Like a bird changes into a ape? Or do you mean some minor bullshit change like the beak of a bird gets longer?

    And with that meager "fact", you conclude that a slimy fishy-thing suddenly became a human? Wow, talk about a leap of faith! Religious people would love to have your faith!!

    Baron Max
     
  10. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

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    3,636
    Natural selection doesn't even need to have it's basis in observation. We just know that there are selection pressures out there, and because of the self replicating nature of life along with hereditry (in the form of genes), we know that living things will evolve. Fair enough, we haven't seen very big changes on our timescale but surely the equipment for such evolution is plain to see. It is obvious how evolution could have lead to these big changes. not so obvious (in fact very fucking hidden) how God could exist at all!
     
  11. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    I don't know .....take some time and look around at nature, all of the things that make up what we term the "natural world". Is there anything that could possibly compare to the beauty and perfection in the natural world ...the trees, the grasses, the lakes, the rivers, the clouds, the rocks, the oceans, ..........

    I don't know, but it makes me wonder sometimes, ya' know?

    But if you're content to believe that all of it came from some primordial soup, and a couple of little tiny, one-celled creatures, then be my guest. But while you're worshipping your science, ask yourself where it all came from in the beginning ...the very, very beginning.

    Baron Max
     
  12. w1z4rd Cry the beloved country Valued Senior Member

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    1,525
    And you believe biblical claims that we came from dirt!?!?!

    PS, evolution does not teach that man came from apes, thats listed as a common christian lie. Evolution teaches that man and apes had common ancestors. All primates do.

    For those wanting proof of evolution:http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/essays/courtenay1.htm
     
  13. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    I don't believe that I've made any such claim ...one way or the other. And this is a discussion about evolution, not about religious beliefs.

    You "believe" in evolution. Others "believe" a little differently. That's all, simple as that.

    Okay, so two apes fucked and they had a little human, huh? Or did the two apes fuck and have a little chimp first? ...then the second birth was a human? That don't change nothin' in all of the discussions of evolution.

    Baron Max
     
  14. w1z4rd Cry the beloved country Valued Senior Member

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    1,525
    Remember when I said your comment is a listed common Christian lie.

    Exactly. Its called evolution.

    Back to your ape fetish? I dont think you grasp the concept of large amount of time easly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2007
  15. BenTheMan Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for blowing some smoke up my ass!

    Look---the thing is that I have absolutely no problem with people who think this universe was designed by God. Like I said, my girlfriend is very religious, and I am not an athiest myself. The problem I have is when people blur the line between religion and science---in this matter I am very inflexible. So in this sense, evolution is the only theory---it has no competitors. Things like intelligent design and creation are just not science, and should not be taught as such.

    If one person wants to ignore the evidence for evolution, then great. If you (not YOU Baron) believe evolution is wrong, great---go work out a better alternative, and convince people that you are right. Someone did that once and proved the earth was round, and that Thalidomide caused birth defects. This is how science works. Eventually everybody agreed. When evolution stops working, a better theory will be developed---in this way science is much like the free market.

    As for now, though, evolution is the best theory that we have, and if you want to talk about science, you should talk about evolution.
     
  16. BenTheMan Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love Valued Senior Member

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    8,967
    Yes it is remarkable how many Christians are willing to pick and choose which logic is ok to apply to God. It is like watching how Christians interpret the Bible---aparently, a few verses by Paul pertaining to something completely different mean that homosexuals should be persecuted. But, when the rapture comes, Christians all think they will be among the first saved, even though Revelation says only 144000 Jews will be saved.
     
  17. Iasion Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    348
    Greetings all,

    Sadly,
    it is all too common for people to confuse the two meanings of the word "theory".

    In popular terms, it means a guess, or speculation. This meaning can also be used in scientific circles of course - such as "tectonic plate theory", which has now been confirmed. But it has not graduated to the "law of tectonic plates". That is simply NOT how it works. Sadly, many people still repeat this false idea that a "hypothesis" becomes a "theory", then graduates to a "law".

    For example - gravity was never a hypothesis, gravity never graduated from a theory to a law - that is simply NOT TRUE.

    Gravity is a fact, we observe it's effects. And, gravitational theory describes how gravity works. See here for an example use of the term "gravitational theory" :
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity#History_of_gravitational_theory

    Of course, in Darwin's time, evolution was a "theory" (meaning speculation.) But it has since been confirmed by every experiment, test, and observation ever done. But it has never been contradicted by ONE single observation.

    For this reason, evolution is now considered certain. It is as "proven" as things ever are in science.


    But,
    in scientific terms, there is another, different, meaning to the word "theory" - it means an EXPLANATION (and/or a model) of how it works, (and allows predictions to be made.)

    The Theory of Evolution is NOT "speculation about evolution" - that is NOT what the phrase means at all.

    Rather -
    the Theory of Evolution is the EXPLANATION for how evolution works, it models the behaviour of the FACTS of evolution.


    Just as Electromagnetic Theory is the explanation or model of how electricity works.
    Would one say "electricity is just a theory" ?
    Of course not.

    And Gravitational Theory is the explanation or model of how gravity works.
    Would one say "gravity is just a theory" ?
    Of course not.

    And Music Theory is the explanation for how music works.
    Would one say "music is just a theory" ?
    Of course not.

    Yet
    some people say
    "evolution is (just) a theory"

    as if it means
    "evolution is merely speculation" (false)

    when it really only means
    "evolution is an explanation, or model" (true)


    Evolution is a FACT.
    We observe evolution.
    And,
    the Theory of Evolution is the EXPLANATION, or model, for the observed facts of evolution.


    The use of the word "theory" here does NOT mean it is unproven.

    Any more than the term "gravitational theory" means gravity has not been proved.

    Evolution is probably the single most solidly supported theory of all time. Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution.


    Iasion
     
  18. BenTheMan Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love Valued Senior Member

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    Hi Iasion---

    This is the point that I was making. People are perfectly willing to accept the conclusions of science so long as they don't challenge their beliefs. Electromagnetic Theory is perfectly ok, because aparently (unless you're Amish), God intended us to have lights and refrigerators.

    But evolution gets singled out as some special case because if one tries to read Genisis literally (which was never intended), one finds inconsistencies.
     
  19. Yorda Registered Senior Member

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    2,275
    life evolves, but not the way darwins theory says. and his theory doesn't explain why life evolves and becomes more complex.
     
  20. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    51,730
    It does exactly that, but a human is not necessarily more complex than a bacterium.
     
  21. Yorda Registered Senior Member

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    2,275
    explain why life becomes complex and i'll explain why it doesn't explain anything.
     
  22. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    51,730
    When a life form stumbles upon a new skill, like photosynthesis, that allows it to take advantage of the situation, it becomes more numerous. Life forms tend to build on previous skills, since there is little advantage to removing abilities. This appears to create complexity.

    I say appears, since the unit of selection is the gene. The genetic code is just different arrangements of 4 units. Apparently simpler life forms can have a much longer genetic code than apparently complex forms.
     
  23. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    Stumbles? Or was directed by some natural force of which you don't know?

    Baron Max
     
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