Evolution of metamorphosis

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by arauca, Oct 13, 2011.

  1. arauca Banned Banned

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    The life of Caterpillar and butterfly is explained by Darwin's evolution
     
  2. spidergoat nameless monster Valued Senior Member

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    You can just say evolution, or neo-Darwinism, but that's correct.
     
  3. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    Did you mean to say its not explained by it? Otherwise this is a no brainer thread bound for the cesspool.
     
  4. arauca Banned Banned

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    Sorry don't know what you mean ,


    The problem here , there is a discontinuity . The caterpillar dies and the becomes a rebirth into a butterfly
     
  5. spidergoat nameless monster Valued Senior Member

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    No it doesn't die.
     
  6. arauca Banned Banned

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    So what happened ? what is the process I am not familiar . I jest know there is a discontinuity
     
  7. spidergoat nameless monster Valued Senior Member

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  8. Hercules Rockefeller voltage gated ion channel Moderator

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    Metamorphosis
     
  9. arauca Banned Banned

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    Great , so how does that firs with Darwin evolution theory ?
     
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Metamorphosis allows one organism to fit two different niches. In the case of caterpillar vs butterfly, the organism gets all the benefits of a low energy leaf-eater (fast-growing, durable, ready food supply, not much wasted energy) AND all the benefits of a high-energy flying organism (different food supply, ability to lay eggs in protected places far, far away.) This is a big survival advantage, so the trait is retained.
     
  11. spidergoat nameless monster Valued Senior Member

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    It fits Darwin's theory because we can outline a gradual step by step process by which it could evolve, based on the fossil record and existing species, which retain some of the same traits in a more primitive form.
     
  12. Hercules Rockefeller voltage gated ion channel Moderator

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    *sigh*

    It seems like a self-evident thing to say, but......

    There is a wealth of scientific information out there on the internet. Sixty seconds worth of searching revealed these relevant scientific[sup]*[/sup] articles. Further searching will reveal even more. (Some are not free, but if you’re serious about learning you can either (i) pay for the online version, or (ii) go to a library and photocopy the articles.)

    Origin and Evolution of Insect Metamorphosis
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470015902.a0022854/full

    The evolution of amphibian metamorphosis: insights based on the transformation of the aortic arches of Pelobates fuscus (Anura)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2100297/

    The Origins and Evolution of Vertebrate Metamorphosis
    http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(11)00831-1

    Evolution of metamorphosis: role of environment on expression of mutant nuclear receptors and other signal-transduction proteins
    http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/content/46/6/808.abstract

    The origins of insect metamorphosis
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v401/n6752/full/401447a0.html


    ---------------------
    [sup]*[/sup] I stress “scientific” sources because, as with most evolutionary topics, idiot creationists have bastardized and corrupted the topic to fit their pre-determined non-scientistic viewpoint. Be wary of where you get your information from.
     
  13. arauca Banned Banned

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    Well I just took as if caterpillar and a butterfly are like different specie , are they not? we know they look different ?
     
  14. drumbeat Registered Senior Member

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    So do babies and adults, but they are not different species.
    Caterpillars are the laval form of the butterfly.
     
  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Not only are they not different species, but they are the exact same individual.

    A caterpillar doesn't evolve into a butterfly. It metamorphoses.
     
  16. arauca Banned Banned

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    Call them what ever you want , they are different ,babe is human and an adult is human babe walk adult don't fly . Caterpillar don't fly butterfly.
    You can argue any way you want they are different, The only thing I want ask is how can you explain evolution in this case , and not using a fancy word metamorphosis.
     
  17. arauca Banned Banned

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    That is closer to what I ask.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2011
  18. drumbeat Registered Senior Member

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    Think of it as growing up, not evolving. A Caterpillar is a child and when it hits puberty it turns into a butterfly.

    There isn't really a simpler way to say it.
     
  19. wellwisher Valued Senior Member

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    Most critters have way more genes then they use. The caterpillar begins its life using one part of its entire genes. The metamorphosis shuts off some genes and turns on others. The net result is it uses more genes over its life.

    Evolution already implies the same answer for everything. Science that is conducted to support evolution, will make use of this template even before the investigation begins. This is why they all sound the same. The butterfly does not fit the template in quite the same way.

    Caterpillars can defoliate large areas. Their metamorphosis into a butterfly will not lower their stress on an ecosystem, but also allows the caterpillars of the future to move their eating show to another fresh location in record time.

    The caterpillars, if they did not change, might strip an area of leaves, leading to their own demise. They will no longer be as hidden from birds and could run out of food. By becoming a butterfly, they are able to relocate far enough away to get fresh food, while allowing the stripped area to regrow. As the butterfly they also change their diet into nectar and help pollinate to make up for their destruction.
     
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Sure.

    First step - single life stage without shedding. (i.e. ants.) They are hatched with the same basic form, then grow as soft, weak insects, then their exoskeleton hardens and they cannot grow any longer.

    Second - single life stage with shedding (i.e. some beetles.) They are hatched small, and a hard shell forms almost immediately. When they get too big for their skin they shed it and get larger. This has evolutionary advantages - they can form hard protective shells right away, are stronger right away, and can still grow to be bigger and stronger.

    Third - multiple life stages with shedding. (Dragonflies.) These are hatched small and immediately form a hard shell for protection. They then moult once, and during that moult, get larger _and_ slightly change their form as new features grow. Dragonflies grow wings, for example. This is a big advantage since the egg doesn't have to contain enough energy to grow the wings at first; the nymph can eat to get enough energy to moult.

    Fourth - metamorphosis. As the organism evolves, the change from nymph to adult becomes more and more drastic, and takes longer and longer. Nymphs that just stop moving while that long final moult happens get eaten, so there is an evolutionary advantage to protecting yourself during that time (digging a burrow, making a cocoon.)
     

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