Evolution defines pleasure as the only good

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by MattMVS7, Mar 19, 2015.

  1. MattMVS7 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    245
    There are 3 pleasure states: negative (hopelessness), neutral (anhedonia), and positive (feeling pleasure). The negative state of pleasure (depression), depression is also a natural response by evolution to discourage our survival aside from it being something such as a chemical imbalance or the result of a brain abnormality. It warns us when something is going wrong in our lives which is the reason why we become depressed when something bad happens in our lives such as the loss of a loved one, etc. When we are encouraged for survival, that would be defined as having genuine good perceptions in life such as to want to live and make the best of our lives, help others, etc. This encouragement can only be defined through our pleasure since it is only our feelings that genuinely encourage and discourage our survival. They are the only things that genuinely make us perceive our lives as either being good and worth living or as bad and not worth living at all. But if you are in a state of anhedonia (absence of pleasure), then this should also tell you that your life is not worth living at all either since how we normally function as human beings would be through relying on our perception of good to make our lives good and worth living. That neutral perception should then send a depressive signal to your brain and then make you and your life bad and of truly even less worth now. As I said before, in a state of anhedonia, our good and bad perceptions are not genuine and is just our mind's irrational way of fooling ourselves into thinking that we are having genuine good and bad perceptions without having any pleasure or suffering in our lives at the moment.

    I said that our encouragement for survival in life can only be defined by having genuine good perceptions. Therefore, since depression discourages our survival, then this means that we cannot genuinely perceive us and our lives as being good and worth living while in a state of significant depression since depression shuts down our good perceptions. Therefore, depression shuts down our good perceptions in a negative sense in that we would have bad perceptions, anhedonia simply neutralizes our perceptions in which we neither genuinely perceive our lives as being good or bad without pleasure and suffering, and pleasure is what defines our genuine good perceptions in life.

    When a person is depressed, he/she might say to his/herself in a depressive mood (tonality) that his/her life is still good and worth living. He/she might very well continue on to pursue his/her dreams and goals in life even while still feeling depressed. But those good perceptions are all decoys without our pleasure as I've said before. The person's depression has shut down his/her genuine good perceptions in life. But he/she is now doing nothing more than just simply saying to his/herself that his/her life is still good and worth living anyway and just forcing his/herself to live life anyway. So now this person is just simply being fooled by words and phrases alone when there is no genuine good perception at all from those words and phrases while he/she is in a state of depression.

    On one side of the spectrum you have people who are so severely depressed that they don't want to do anything who find no good value in their lives. They can hardly function and can hardly want to do things in their lives at all. These types of people are so severe that they can never bring themselves to make the best of their lives and such. These types of people need electric shock treatment. But on the other side of the spectrum you have people who are so happy and excited in life that they are doing all sorts of great things in life. So based on that, you can clearly see how our level of pleasure defines our level of good perception in life. But even if it were somehow a proven fact that you and your life are truly good even in a state of depression/anhedonia, then what good is that going to do for you? What is the use of you and your life being good if you are not even allowed to genuinely perceive it as being good?

    Now our perceptions do define how we feel. But it's our feelings that make those said perceptions genuinely good or bad only from the perspective of those feelings alone and not from the perspective of those perceptions (thoughts) alone which are all neutral in of themselves as I've said before. So it's just how we feel independent of our thoughts that genuinely makes us and our lives good or bad. I also realize that there is one other emotion which would be empathy. There are also 3 states of empathy as well: negative (in which you feel bad such as you feeling sorry for hurting someone else), neutral (no empathy in which one might also just simply help others out anyway through just thoughts and such alone), and positive (which would be a feeling of pleasure in which you feel good for helping someone else). Here again, the negative state defines us and our lives as being bad and genuinely defines our perceptions as bad, the neutral defines us and our lives as being neither good or bad and our perceptions as being neither good or bad without our pleasure, and the positive state is what genuinely defines us and our lives as being genuinely good and defines our perceptions as being genuinely good.

    In conclusion, I am making these arguments to try and help find better cures and treatments for anhedonia and depression. If people would realize that pleasure and suffering are the only true good and bad things in life, then they would be much more inclined to find better treatments and a cure. Too many people are just accepting of suffering due to them thinking that they are still good people even with much suffering and/or an absence of pleasure in their lives. But I wish to change this mindset so that people would then truly realize once and for all the pleasure and suffering really are the only true good and bad things in life. Not only am I trying to find better treatments and cures for depression and anhedonia, but also for suffering in general. My hedonistic values would also encourage others to find better treatments and cures for suffering in general as well. This would also even include mortality since living in an eternal blissful life of no suffering is the one and only greatest life there is and is the one and only thing that would make you the greatest person.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,921
    But what does any of this have to do with evolution?
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Daecon Kiwi fruit Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,048
    I'm pretty sure this isn't your first thread on this subject. Why make a new one? Did the old one get locked?
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. MattMVS7 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    245
    My pleasure is what I deem as my personal life. I must have that back. Or someone dies. It won't be an innocent person who is trying to help me recover my pleasure. It would instead be someone who mocks me by telling me to accept my absence of pleasure. How could I possibly accept something that renders me and my life of no good value whatsoever? You say that there are other good things in life besides pleasure. No, I do not believe that. Not in the least bit. This is because, from my personal experience of depression and anhedonia, my thoughts and such without my pleasure are just neutral conscious experiences to me. They have no life and are just nothing more than neutral sounds, images, phrases, etc. without my pleasure. Only my pleasure breathes life into those things and makes me and my life good. There is no transcending experience whatsoever from my thoughts and such alone without my pleasure. Again, it has nothing to do with me attributing neutral value to those said things that is making them neutral experiences for me. They really are all neutral in of themselves without my pleasure and it has nothing to do with me attributing neutral value or any other value to them. I live life to experience it and to be transcended by it. I am not some bland person who is fine living a life like some robot or someone who just lives life like a job and nothing more. I am more profound and greater than that. Therefore, I need my pleasure back to regain that said profound and great life.

    If you were to make me watch a video of Hitler slaughtering the innocent Jews, I would perceive Hitler as being a bad person. But I would also realize that this version of bad is neutral (fake). Feelings of suffering are the only true bad things in life while feelings of pleasure are the only true good things in life. Therefore, if Hitler didn't have any feelings of suffering and only derived pleasure from slaughtering the Jews, then that pleasure would make him a good person. But since the Jews experienced feelings of suffering, then that would make them bad. Why do I say this? It's not because I am some sociopath or anything of the sort. Sociopaths have little to no empathy. I have empathy. If I saw Hitler or someone harming someone or some innocent living creature, I would feel very sorry for that living person/creature. However, I would realize that the psychopath would actually be a good person for deriving pleasure in harming that person/innocent living thing.

    So, again, why do I say this? It is because my personal experience of depression and anhedonia (absence of pleasure) have made me realize that pleasure is the only truly good experience in life. I now realize that our thoughts and such without our pleasure are all neutral and are all neutral conscious experiences. If, let's pretend, I never had depression or anhedonia, then I would truly perceive Hitler as being a horrible person even though he derived pleasure from harming all the Jews. Therefore, you might then say that my depression and anhedonia have distorted my perceptions. But this is false. I now have every reason to believe that pleasure is the one and only true good thing in life. Please refer to my other packets which contain arguments and reasonings supporting this claim.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2015
  8. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,921
    I reported your post so it can be moved to philosophy or free thoughts or something. Hope this does not intrude on your quest of pleasuring yourself.
     
  9. danshawen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,942
    This is your brain on philosophy. Folks like Caligula and the Marquis de Sade derived pleasure from inflicting pain on others, which complicates your philosophy a bit. What made you focus on those aspects of existence as a centerpiece of philosophy? Maybe it's not about 'you' or 'your needs'. Evolution certainly isn't.

    Give it up, MattMVS7. The judge will not reduce a sentence for possession of controlled substances by virtue of your sparkling philosophical arguments. Possibly you will get an opportunity to try them out on a trained psychiatrist instead of in a science forum. He will also prescribe you a new anti-depressive drug if you need it. If you think that is the key to "survival", philosophically or otherwise, think again.

    I'd give the philosophy forum a pass and put this directly where it belongs, a little deeper.

    Impressive how quickly it led to a fulfillment of Godwin's law by the original poster, however. Hitler wasn't the first with a very flawed megalomaniacal vision of a perfect world exclusively for the benefit and pleasure of a lot of perfect inbred and conformist or sedated inhabitants, and with philosophies like yours, he won't be the last.
     
  10. MattMVS7 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    245
    We have good, bad, and neutral (neither good or bad). But the version of good and bad that comes from everything else in life besides our feelings of pleasure and suffering, they are all the neutral version of good and bad. In other words, they are the fake verison of good and bad. If this makes no sense to you, then allow me to explain. We would not refer to everything else in life besides our feelings of pleasure and suffering as being good or bad. We would instead refer to them as all being neutral. We would instead refer to feelings of pleasure as being what is the one and only good thing in life while feelings of suffering would be the one and only bad thing in life. Even if those neutral things only served to bring us and/or others nothing but suffering or pleasure, we would still not refer to them as being good or bad. Even if seeking pleasure only brought us and/or others nothing but suffering, we would still not refer to pleasure as being bad since it is always good since it is the true version of good. It is a version of good that is independent of our thoughts and moral values. It is a feeling version of good. Therefore, our value judgments including everything else in life can never define it as ever being bad or neutral. Same concept applies for our feelings of suffering. It does not matter what you say such as that seeking too much pleasure will cause a chemical tolerance and cause you an absence of pleasure and suffering, or if you were to tell me that other things in life besides our pleasure benefit our survival much more. Pleasure is still the only good thing in life since it is a feeling version of good and it cannot be defined as bad or neutral as I've said before. Same concept applies for our feelings of suffering.

    If you were to stub your toe and inflict pain upon yourself, then that brief moment of pain would make you worse than Hitler. As a matter of fact, Hitler would be a good person if he had no feelings of suffering and had feelings of pleasure in a given moment from harming the Jews as I just said before and am saying here again to make myself clear in this paragraph (argument) as well.

    Also, if I were to somehow perceive me and my life as being good and worth living without my pleasure, then that good perception would not be good at all. It would only be neutral and I would only be fooling myself into perceiving it as good. So people who have depression and/or anhedonia (absence of pleasure) who perceive them and their lives as being good and worth living anyway without their pleasure, these people are only fooling themselves. Everything else in life besides our feelings of pleasure and suffering that are claimed to be good and bad, that version of good and bad is a decoy and people must realize this so that we can find better treatments/cures for depression, anhedonia, and suffering in general since our pleasure is what is the only good thing in life and it is that much more vital that we have it in our lives.

    I will add one last thing from my other packets here because this packet is a brief summary and I want to include this important point in this packet as well. This important point I want to make is that we are only in our own minds and not in the minds of others. We can only feel our own pleasure and suffering and we cannot feel the pleasure and suffering of others. The pleasure and suffering of others is only a neutral thought from our own perspective. When we feel pleasure from someone else experiencing pleasure or if we feel suffering from someone else experiencing suffering, that is all our own feelings of pleasure and suffering and we are not experiencing the pleasure and suffering of those other people. Therefore, since we can only experience our own feelings of pleasure and suffering, then it is only our own feelings of pleasure and suffering that matter to us and are the only things that define us and our lives as being good or bad. The pleasure and suffering of others should not matter to us since they are all just neutral thoughts and we cannot experience their pleasure or suffering. Our own pleasure and suffering should be the only things that matter to us in life either in a good way (pleasure) or a bad way (suffering). Other people should not matter to us at all. But even so, my family and other innocent people matter to me greatly regardless of this cruel and harsh truth I have discovered. This is because I am not some sociopath as I said before and I would not treat my family and other innocent people like they are nothing more than slaves to me.
     
  11. danshawen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,942
    Take it from a cancer survivor that there is pain much worse than stubbing your toe which, if it causes you pain, is not something for which you could assign blame, even if that had any meaning.

    You sound like my late sister, to whom I could only respond (in retrospect) that life has exactly the meaning you give to it, and nothing more. Her life, although much shorter than mine, probably had more actual meaning than mine does. Assigning blame would not change that outcome very much either.

    I see now that you have started another thread on these forums with very similar content. I hope you find whatever answer you are looking for.
     
  12. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    34,667
    Er ... um ... okay, I'm just grabbing a quote. In truth, it is difficult to see where you're going with this discussion in general, in either the thesis implied by the thread title or more explicit expressions in the conclusion paragraph of the topic post. The relationship between these two general ideas is not coming through clearly.

    Perhaps it is the inclusion of the evolution question, though you are also establishing something of a narrative context. Where, exactly, is that narrative going, and does it actually come back to evolution?

    That is to say, can you illustrate for others these experiences you describe in such a manner as to better illuminate your intended pathway?

    It is hard enough to follow from A to B at present; what I'm seeing in the response is some confusion as to what could possibly constitute C.

    Give them a reasonable pathway through the alphabet, as such, and the discussion can at least try to follow along. Right now it's more like groping around while blindfolded on a moonless, foggy night.
     
  13. MattMVS7 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    245
    I am going to state something extremely important here. It is something truly amazing. When I had this depression and anhedonia (absence of pleasure), this lead me to a personal belief (conclusion) that pleasure is the only truly good thing in life, suffering is the only truly bad thing in life, while everything else in life is neutral (neither truly good or bad). I went online and typed in the question "Is pleasure the only good thing in life?" and I have found an established belief system that basically matches what I just said word for word. This belief is known as Psychological Hedonism. I am now going to give you the link (url) to this website:

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hedonism/

    Now that you've read it, I find it too much of a coincidence that an intelligent person such as myself has come up with a personal conclusion and that there also so happens to be a belief supported by science that says the exact same things I'm saying. Therefore, pleasure really must be the only truly good thing in life then and suffering must be the only truly bad thing in life.

    I can honestly say here that this is something truly tragic though because this would mean that we would have every right to treat suffering people like shit since they are bad people since they feel bad. If we suffer, then we should treat ourselves like shit since we are bad people who deserve to be thrown and tossed away like metal scraps. It would also mean that we should bow down before those types of people who derive pleasure from making our lives shit since they are the greater people since they have pleasure in their lives.
     
  14. danshawen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,942
    That reads a lot like a more narcissistic version of a basic utilitarian philosophy. Once again, I have to say (like I did on the other thread), maybe it's not about you, your pain or pleasure, or whatever.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    (from pinterest, and also memepix).
     
    sideshowbob likes this.
  15. cosmictotem Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    747
    "blah, blah, blah...pleasure...blah..pleasure....blah, blah...pleasure..."

    Stuck, are we?
     
  16. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    Only animals can have nervous systems, and many species in the lower orders don't. Chordates (mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish and cartilaginous fish) have central nervous systems, so the concepts of pleasure and depression can be applied to them. Many species in the lower orders, such as octopus, may have something comparable, but as I said, the further you go down the evolutionary scale, the more primitive the nervous system, making the concepts of pleasure and depression simply not applicable.

    And that's just animals. When we consider the other five kingdoms of life (plants, fungi, algae, bacteria and archaea), it's ludicrous to impute these phenomena to them.

    My point: Evolution proceeded quite well without emotions for about three billion years before it produced an organism that could feel pleasure or depression. So your thesis seems to be a little off base.
     
  17. kx000 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,293
    Love and hate are one essence. Hate is love un distilled. Nothing rittles us, pleasure is the only thing.
     
  18. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    Most of the organisms on this planet are plants, fungi, algae, bacteria and archaea (a newly discovered Kingdom of living things that are microscopic and live at the bottom of the sea). These organisms have no nervous system, so they can't possibly experience any emotions. They have rudimentary abilities that aid in survival, such as a plant tilting a stem toward light, but this is something you could duplicate with an Erector set, not a process that comes even close to emotion.

    Animals are newcomers to the circle of life, and even most of us don't have an intricate enough nervous system (or don't have a nervous system at all, like the protozoa) to be identified as having emotions.

    As I said earlier, evolution moved forward for several billion years without any living things expressing emotions, and it got along just fine.
     
  19. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,519
    Hmmm...."archaea (a newly discovered kingdom of living things)"..how quaint. I wonder how many other Kingdoms of living things exist that science is totally clueless about.
     
  20. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    It took the development of new deep-sea exploration technology before we discovered Archaea. We may discover other clades in other heretofore unreachable places... maybe not at the level of a Kingdom, but a new Phylum of animals or plants would be pretty exciting.
     
    Photizo likes this.
  21. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,955
    I'd say it's more of a spectrum, undefined at both ends. (As any pessimist will tell you, no matter how hopeless your life is, it can always get worse.) The only sensible "measure of pleasure" is relative - i.e. I feel better (or worse) than yesterday.
     
  22. IIIIIIIIII Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    109
    I personally think that hedonistic values are the roots for depression as it is an helpless run toward unsatisfaction and just provide the illusion of happiness. Epicurean or even Stoician values are much better advisers IMHO.
     

Share This Page