Evidence that God is real

Discussion in 'Religion' started by James R, Aug 31, 2018.

  1. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Dr_Toad:

    I don't. But not every theist says that his belief is faith-based. Some of them say that they believe because there is evidence.

    Jan says he believes because it just comes naturally to him - like he has no choice. So, for him, evidence is irrelevant. He believes because he believes; it's like it's in his genes, if we take his words at face value. But at the same time, he asserts that, regardless of why he is a theist, there is still evidence of God out there to be had. And that's what I'm interested in hearing about in this thread.

    To be clear: for the purposes of this thread, I don't care why theists believe in their God/gods. They can believe because it's "natural", or because they "have faith" or whatever - it doesn't matter for this thread. The focus here is entirely on whether they think there is any evidence for God (and, if so, what it is).
     
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  3. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    OK... um...

     
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  5. Dr_Toad It's green! Valued Senior Member

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    Yessir. I'm hardcore agnostic, if I had to label myself, but I see what I want to be god in the sunrise, in the flight of birds during the fall migration, in the fish leaping to my hook.

    Also in the the cougar that hunts my dogs or the neighbor's stock animals, but it's just a fleeting desire, not evidence.

    I think you have to graduate for proof, and there's the rub. No way to report back, unless you have a medium, or even a large.
     
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  7. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    Prayer, done expertly

    Beg pardon. Does religion give lessons on how to pray?

    Please sir can I answer sis please please

    No plans. No listing

    Miracles are the result of understanding how the laws os physics operate, and can be used by any learned practitioner

    Yep. Even numnuts here knows if I want good TV signal reception I need a suitable antenna ie a wooden stick is not good enough

    However getting a good signal with a suitable antenna is not classed as a miracle.

    Come and get one with a wooden stick, yep you are on the way to convincing me miracles exist

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  8. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    In short, the main struggle you will have with this subject is that the "evidence" for God is not determined or constrained by the standard "veil of perception" that commonly surrounds our ideas of things in this world. This is because of the ontological position God occupies. In short, despite your insistence that this is not the place to get into definitions of God and reality, such issues of definition and relationship are primary. In fact, thats how all epistemology works : by definitions of relationship between "seer" and "object" one determines the process of acquiring knowledge. If you fail that, you can't even peer down the right end of a telescope (or, at the least, the knowledge you get from doing that is radically different).

    Yazata was certainly close in his estimations of "religious experience". Perhaps the closest analogy available to all is the experience that arises from eating. For one (who is healthy), the act of eating provides nourishment, relief from hunger and satisfaction. The "veil of perception" doesn't intercede to demand some other third party evidence (in fact, if anything, they would more than likely work the other way .... if you were tested somehow and found that you were in fact hungry, how would you resolve that if you had the experience you weren't ?).
     
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That's a struggle the theist might have, in presenting the evidence. Not other people.
    Sounds like providing evidence for your God is going to take some thought and effort on your part. Is that why you won't do it?
     
  10. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    I wasn't aware theists were the ones struggling with evidence.

    I can also peer down the wrong end of a telescope and tell an astronomer they are full of shit. I wouldn't pride myself on my reserves of thought and effort though ...
     
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Well, lessee - I'm pretty sure most people here can provide evidence of the existence of food, and the scientifically inclined can provide evidence of the existence of nourishment and hunger, without much in way of epistemological complexities.

    So where's the analogy to evidence for God, in that "analogy" ?
    Everyone else is taking your word for that. You keep telling us about your struggles, invoking analogies to illustrate the difficulty of the task, etc., and we are holding off on calling bullshit until you leave us no choice.
    The question is why you refuse to tell us which end of the telescope is the right one, and what we would see if we looked down it.
     
  12. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    And people think Dawkins is exaggerating, insulting, impolitic.

    Forget the reality of God (the dominant Abrahamic deity) - we now need evidence that the entire matter of belief in that deity is not an exercise in self-deception and bad faith.

    Because in the absence of countervailing evidence or argument, that has become the default assumption.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
  14. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    If asked about providing evidence for some aspect of reality I am sure I could do so

    If not at least point them to a expert to provide sensible explanations

    All a theist has to do is point to any moment within the explanation and exclaim

    ''Ar Ha that point there, where such and such occurs, that part. THAT .COULD NOT HAPPEN UNLESS GOD MADE IT SO"

    So theist you have the whole spectrum of science, the observations, the theories, the research everything science has involved itself with

    For christ sake pick something god did and science missed

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  15. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Right. The same ontological position occupied by leprechauns and unicorns. In other word, it's nonsense.
     
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  16. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    The evidence is for everyone, but Faith itself is subjective.
     
  17. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Hate is a literal anti-christ in my religion. God is to the devil as LOVE is to Hate
     
  18. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    Which is precisely what I posted

    But putting on my pedantic hat here is the problem

    Love and hate do not exist ie they have no physicality

    They are names given to PROCESSES

    Soooo if god is love he is non existent

    Twist it round and religion says god is real (with a physical presence)

    Please provide a PHYSICAL sample of love, or hate I'm not fussy

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  19. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    Not even remotely.
     
  20. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    The subjective nature, manifest as a spontaneous thought ("I, believe").
     
  21. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    I believe
    is not evidence

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  22. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    ///
    There may be evidence of something for me which I cannot show others but yes, belief is not even evidence for the self. Evidence or something perceived as evidence precedes belief. Once there is belief, something can be perceived as further evidence but something causes the belief.

    <>
     
  23. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    At the low end of the spectrum I would put it as - exposure

    Middle range - teaching, indoctrination

    Upper range - brain washing

    Lower end - bias

    Upper end - reinforce feedback

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