Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by will_ebert, Jun 24, 2002.

  1. will_ebert Registered Member

    No one today has salvation. Mark 16:16/17 says that, if you believe and are baptized, you will be saved and you will have the power to perform miracles, lay your hands on the sick and they will be healed and Jesus also says you can tell a tree to pull itself up by the roots and cast itself into the sea and it will obey. And Math. 17--20/21 Jesus says "that nothing will be impossible for you". Corinthains 4--20 says the gospel is a matter of power and not of words. If you have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, you will have this power. Or is the gift of speaking in tongues the only gift that God has. That is what some say that proves you have been baptized by the Holy Spirit. If you don't have the power then you have not been baptized, therefore you are not saved.

    Let me began this with luke 16--19/31. Lazarus died and went to heaven, that is the first resurrection, [for the dead in christ will rise first] Oh by the way this Lazarus is the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead. This lazarus is the same rich man that came to Jesus in Mat.19--16/22 and ask: What must I do in order to be saved? and in Luke 18 --18/26. Ecclesiastes 9--5/6 says that the dead know nothing, Their love, their hate, their passions, all died with them. Ecc. 9-10 says work hard at whatever you do ,because there will be no action, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom in world of the dead--and that is where you are going. Now, does that sound like the action of someone in heaven or hell. Everyone's spirit goes back to God when they die and there body goes back to dust. Besides, if a person went to heaven or hell the moment they died, what is the resurrection for. Surely you don't think that God would take someone out of hell, pass judgement on them and then throw them back into hell. "ludicrous" Also Psalms 88----10/12
    Then the Bible says that the rich man died and went to hell, according to Rev. 20 the rest of the dead will not rise until the thousand years is over with. Jesus said that Lazarus died and went to heaven, [the first resurrection], then the rich man died and went to hell, [the second resurrection], but there is a thousand years between the two resurrection's, and then the judgment . Look at John 5--25/29 Jesus said the dead would hear his voice and come out of their graves. Those that had done good will rise and live, and those who had done evil would rise and be condemned. Jesus said this in one statement, but their is a thousand years between the two resurrections. Now to the thief on the cross. In Mat.27--44 the bible says that both thieves insulted him. Also in Mark 15---32. but in Luke 23--32/43 Jesus said, I promise you, that "today" In other words, he made the promise that day. you would be in paradise with me. He won't be with him in paradise until he is resurrected, and judged. He knew that both their spirit would go back to God who gave it. Now you study the bible to find out for yourself where Jesus spent the next three [3] days
  2. Firefly Registered Senior Member

    You're assuming the existence of a hell there.
  3. Zero Banned Banned

    Good counter. I have nothing more to add, except that I can almost here the gasps and cries of "Base unbeliever!! Let us pray for their enlightenment" from afar.

    Interesting argumetn, though.
  4. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

    No one's spirit ever "left" God in the first place, that is an ungrateful insult to the Father's omnipresence.

    Therefore Jesus did not have power because he did not move a mountain?

    Are you suggesting he hasn't ALREADY been judged, according to the doctrine of predestination? Which I'm assuming you don't believe in, another blatant insult, this time to the omniscience of the Father.

    The resurrection is for everyone. Those going to heaven and those going to hell. Why do you say people go to heaven the moment they die? What about Jesus preparing a place... as is written.

  5. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    This is due to a misunderstanding by many Christians. We are all baptized by the Holy Spirit through faith in God and by Jesus' death. It's not a "proof of power", and neither is "speaking in tongues". God gives his gifts according to His will - not ours (Heb. 2:4). The power mentioned here is God's power, not ours. It can't be bought or deserved (Acts 8:20), it comes about through faith. Anybody can love, and that was said to be the greatest gift of all! It doesn't matter whether or not you have these amazing powers - they add nothing to the gift of the Holy Spirit. No more than simple love.

    I think this is the verse you were looking for:

    1 Corinthians 12:3
    Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

    This can be difficult to understand, but it helps to see that there are two perspectives here: our perspective and God's perspective. The thousand years of peace is in heaven, and Satan has been cast on earth during this time. From God's perspective, the devil has been chained up - he has no more power, but to us he is still a threat, deceiving the nations. Everybody who dies immediately become part of the "thousand years of Christ's reign" in heaven (sometimes called "those who have fallen asleep in Christ"). At the end of this period, Jesus will return to earth and the rest of the dead will be resurrected (the second resurrection), and judgment will be passed. Jesus himself heralds that Judgment, so it moves with Him - after He died on the cross, He proclaimed the victory to the dead (I presume that's what you meant with "the next 3 days") and the living alike; it was a kind of victory procession on his way to heaven.

    The Jews believed that everybody went to "hell" (sheol/the grave), whether good or bad. There they waited for salvation or judgment. There is also no concept of time, so when you die you are in a sense already facing judgment. This is what you read in Ecclesiastics, Job and John 5. But at the last trumpet our physical bodies will be changed into spiritual bodies (1 Cor. 15:49), to inhabit the new world Jesus brings with Him. Before Christ's second coming, I suppose those who are with Him now have no need for a resurrected body yet.

    Once again, the answer lies with Jesus himself:

    John 11:25
    Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

    You said a few other things that I haven't addressed specifically, such as that the rich man and Lazarus were the same man (they weren't). Jesus knew and loved the Lazarus that he resurrected (John 11:5), but He didn't know the rich man. You might have confused him with the beggar Lazarus who lay at the rich man's door, I'm not sure. But please ask if there's something else you're wondering about.
  6. Lemming3k Insanity Gone Mad Registered Senior Member

    I kind of agree with the thread title but for different reasons, now assuming heaven and hell exist, we all go to the same one, the simple explanation is this, if we sin we go to hell, but god forgives our sins so we go to heaven. Since i've never met someone who hasnt sinned(except a new born child) we all go to hell if our sins are not forgiven, if they are forgiven we all go to heaven, simple, we cant win/lose depending on which explanation is correct, thats my theory anyways.
  7. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    That depends on who does the saving, and who accepts the salvation. If you have confessed that you are a sinner, then you must also confess that you need God to save you, not true?
  8. Lemming3k Insanity Gone Mad Registered Senior Member

    Then when you die(if he exists) you ask him to save you dont you? :D
  9. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    Nobody asks anything when they die, you've heard that. You have life, with a brain and a mouth, so that you can think, act and ask. You will be judged by your life, your actions - I don't think waiting till you're dead will make your case any stronger.
  10. Q25 Registered Senior Member

    just great,
    another brainwashed fundie proselytizer on board :(

    send me a postcard when you get there! :rolleyes:
  11. antifreeze defrosting agent Registered Senior Member

    okay, i lack in faith and thus lack in knowledge of the faith, perhaps you could enlighten me? did christ's, uh, sacrifice grant access to heaven for all those that believe? need they only ask forgiveness for their sins?
  12. okinrus Registered Senior Member

    SouthStar, the only thing that insults our Father is sin.
  13. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    They need to ask Him for forgiveness, that's the point. Everybody's guilty of his death.
  14. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

    the statements I quoted were untrue, however *pure* his intentions were. And I'm assuming you believe in the same things I do, and therefore know that God hates a lying tongue. For example, his statement: "Everyone's spirit goes back to God when they die and there body goes back to dust." implies that at sometime EVERYONE LEFT GOD... but perhaps you are right, there's something I'm missing.

    I have the unfortunate habit of visiting this forum in the wee hours of the morning... <yawn>
  15. yinyinwang Registered Senior Member

    i am in a hell already!
  16. shrubby pegasus Registered Senior Member

    saying that implies that is your view, that could be interpretted in a countlesss number of ways
  17. Daydreamer Registered Member

    Where in the bible does it say that you MUST believe in god to come to heaven? I'm just asking since i don't really know myself.... The only thing that i can recall as being a "rule" is that you shouldn't have any OTHER god than Him. So as long as you follow the ten commandments then you should be ok right?

    If that is true there is really no need to ask foregiveness. Live such a good life as you possibly can and then when you die, god probably wont send you to hell just because you didn't talk to him often enough. He is, after all, the merciful god according to the NT.

    The notion of a hell that you are condemned to are in contradiction to the notion of a merciful and almighty god. But hey, that is just another contradiction to chalk up on the bord of mistakes in the bible. I use the bible as a very good reason to believe that there is no reason whatsoever as to follow the christian teachings to the letter. Treat other people as you want to be treated yourself, and then, when you die, you probably will be treated the same way still. If there is any afterlife that is...
  18. alain du hast mich Registered Senior Member

    "I kind of agree with the thread title but for different reasons, now assuming heaven and hell exist, we all go to the same one, the simple explanation is this, if we sin we go to hell, but god forgives our sins so we go to heaven. Since i've never met someone who hasnt sinned(except a new born child) we all go to hell if our sins are not forgiven, if they are forgiven we all go to heaven, simple, we cant win/lose depending on which explanation is correct, thats my theory anyways."

    so basically, sin your hearts out cos it wont make a difference and
    we have a 50% chance of being punished for doing what it is impossiblel to not to
    or we're being rewarded for doing the stuff that it is impossible not to

    strange religion
  19. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    It isn't quite enough, because it only guarantees that at some point you will disobey it. By the way, it does specify that you must believe in God: that's what the first four commandments are.

    35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
    36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

    And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.

    Matthew 5:20
    For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Romans 3:19
    Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

    The law is powerless to show mercy, and that is why you need forgiveness. And why you need Christ, because
    Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:39)​

    It's the law that condemns you - it shows that you can't live according to God's will without God himself making it possible. If there was no punishment - no "hell" - then what is the law for, what power does it have? And likewise, if you don't believe in God, who will save you from your sins?

    The fact that you have to try to be good enough shows that you aren't and will never be. Perfection is not an inherent human trait - we need God to make us perfect. So you think treating God with the same lack of respect as you treat His commandments will at worst make Him treat you equally ambiguously? How do you think you will feel if God treats you for eternity as you treated Him? If God lets even the tiniest amount of injustice or imperfection into His presence, then doesn't that mean it's "actually OK"? His commandments made it clear that it isn't actually OK - in fact, He won't tolerate anything that isn't as holy as Himself.

    The only reason you can ever have for thinking God would find you innocent is faith. So how much faith do you have that He will?
  20. rainbow__princess_4 The Ashtray Girl Registered Senior Member

    If you search a damn old book written by hundreds of idiots then you're going to find inconsistancies... dah...

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