Euthenasia

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Adam, May 26, 2002.

  1. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    In the news quite a lot now in Australia is this suicide business. An old woman killed herself the other day, and a younger women is on the news now saying she should have the right to kill herself any times she wants.

    I believe Hypocrates said "First of all, do no harm."

    Does doing harm include keeping a person alive and in great pain and misery? Or would it be greater harm to assist the patient's siucide?

    I contacted the Australian Medical Association ages ago and asked for their official policy on this matter, but I have lost the emails they sent me. Basically their official policy was that euthenasia is bad, mmkay.

    So what are you thoughts on this matter?
     
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  3. Merlijn curious cat Registered Senior Member

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    I would think that ultimately ne should be allowed to have one's life end if in intolerable suffering.
    But it is a hard subject. I would say that another necessary condition would be that there is no (or nearly no) chance of recovery. (that is to rule out those who are in temporary distress like 'emotional victims')

    Suffering is bad, mmkay.
     
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  5. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    In medical environment, anyone who is sane should be allowed to request suicide. Doctors should not assist suicide unless it is desired for just reasons (as in, being a vegetable...). Suicide, outside of the medical environment, should not be illegal.

    I believe that suicide should be legal because I believe that my body is my body and I'm going to fucking well do whatever I want with it. I pray that children one day will not be born into a life where they do not have freedom of the self.


    Edit: back from dinner.

    Anyway, where was I...ah yes. So why should doctor's not be allowed to assist suicide unless it is for just reasons? Because people may want to commit suicide in the heat of a moment when it's definetly not a good idea (I know, I know...to most of us, suicide is never a good idea).

    Suicide is what I like about subways. How many thousands of people are stopped at commiting suicide because they either don't do it efficiently enough to kill themselves or get caught 'red handed'? Tons. And what does this show? That they are either not smart or not sincere. If you are actually intent on killing yourself, all you have to do is get your lazy ass to the nearest subway station and jump. Not difficult. Not painful (for long, at least). No way to not die. It's the simple solution. As far as I'm concerned, trying to commit suicide being illegal does nothing outside of medical environment. If someone is sincere, there is ALWAYS a way to kill yourself easily. To me, it means the system works.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2002
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  7. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    It's my belief that every living creature (not including permanently brain dead people) should do everything in their power to stay alive and live their lives the best they can. People were put on this earth for a reason -- to live. Throwing away your own truly personal possesion, you life, is completely pathetic and misguided.

    The problem with euthenisia is that people are sometimes pressured to accept their murder, by people like their families!! Maybe it costs too much, or maybe it they just hate the person, or maybe they're just so selfish that they dont want to see their loved ones suffer, at the expense of their lives. That is wrong. Sure life can suck sometimes, but what's existence without existing. As long as we're on this earth, we should all have the right to live, and to live with the peace of mind that nobody can LEGALLY kill us.


    Imagine, when you have the flu, you want to crawl into a corner and die, and let that be that. Eventually though when you get better, you want to scream it to the world and get outside. Even terminally ill people have something to hope for. So many cures are just around the corner. Hell, a cure for cancers being worked out here right in my city. The guy keeps the chemicals needed in his refrigerator.

    You should try and enjoy everyday you have on this earth, 'cause you have almost nothing else. Never forget, things could always be worse. Appreciate what you have.
     
  8. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    Elbaz.....religious?

    "It's my belief that every living creature (not including permanently brain dead people) should do everything in their power to stay alive and live their lives the best they can."

    It's my belief that every human being should try going a day without saying a single word. I don't think they should make it law. I have lots of beliefs, but that's what they are, beliefs. One of my biggest ones is that no asshole should be allowed to force a belief on me.



    "The problem with euthenisia is that people are sometimes pressured to accept their murder, by people like their families!!"

    And you would know this because you've gone through so many euthanasia experiences. The problem with alcohol is that everyone is pressured into trying it. Should it be illegal?



    "Sure life can suck sometimes, but what's existence without existing."

    Not existing. There are an infinite number of future/past beings which currently do not exist. I don't hear them complaining.



    "As long as we're on this earth, we should all have the right to live, and to live with the peace of mind that nobody can LEGALLY kill us."

    Hahahaha. You MUST be religious! 'we should all have the right to live'. Hahahaha. How in hell does euthanasia take away your right to live? Not drinking doesn't take away the fact that you have the right to drink, does it? It just means you aren't exercising that right. Illegal euthanasia takes away a right. The right to control your life.



    "Imagine, when you have the flu, you want to crawl into a corner and die, and let that be that"

    Um.....no. See, I'm not a little pussy. I've had mono for two months and never once would I say I wanted to crawl into a corner and die. I've gotten serious migraines and even then, while I say 'I just want to die' I know full well that it will end. That's why I said, someone should have to be sane before they can make the choice to have assisted suicide.



    "You should try and enjoy everyday you have on this earth, 'cause you have almost nothing else. Never forget, things could always be worse. Appreciate what you have."

    Sieg Heil Elbaz! All Must Feel The Same As Elbaz! The Goal of The State is To Make Sure All Have The Same Outlook On Life As Elbaz!
     
  9. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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  10. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    Now that's a real good way to kill yourself.

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    What about the subway "driver"? He watches the people jump before the subway and the memory remains in his head. Don't you think such experiences can cause problems also? Mayhaps this subway "drivers" want to commit suicide because of all that. If you really want to commit suicide, then do it on your own and don't bother other people with it.

    As for euthenasia, well, difficult subject. When a person is brain dead, yes, do it. That person is no more than a vegetable then. What if people are in so much pain, they prefer to die? I think it's up to those people, whether you agree with it or not.

    It's easy saying, no you may never do such a "thing", when you are not in that position.

    Sorry, I don't know how a person who is operating the subway train, is called in English...
     
  11. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    Tyler.....High??? :bugeye:

    Do you feel threatened or something?? sounds like it. You better watch out, cause if you try and commit suicide, I just my try and stop you!!!

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    !!!!

    Go kill yourself, tyler, see if I care. I'm not forcing my beliefs on you am I?? Take a gun to your head a blow a hole in it. Do you think you'd like that -- arent there things you still want to do? I'm supporting life, living it, instead of being a pussy as you seem to imply anyone who complains about an ailment is.

    I've heard of a couple of people faced with a foreign option of death medication by doctors HERE, in Calgary. I've heard many stories as you probably have, too, all abroad. Imagine, you're nothing but a burden on your family. You think they dont have the slightest urge to get you off their back. Remember infanticide. Are you support that too????

    Care to prove that, michio kaku? Should you be hearing these voices as an addition to 10 or so, currently talking to you right, now.

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    Maybe you cant hear them because they were never, and never will be in existence, and therefore there's no such thing

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    Could it be that Euthenisia kills you? Something to think about...


    Are you trying to tell me that in your eyes, murder and alcoholism are indistinguishable? People can be pressured into doing things they dont want to by two types of people: bad 'friends' and bad 'family'. When somebody's terminally ill, they're weak, dying, they dont know what to think. And when their families (people who they probably trust more that bad friends) say somethings okay, are they not bound to believe it?

    I said you 'feel' like you want to crawl into a corner a die, not actually do that. The part where you say, 'I'm not a little pussy' also contradicts everything you've been trying to say. Arent people who are faced with euthenisia, pussies because they don't want to experience the life they can. Being a pussy or not shouldn't have anything to with you're will to live. Maybe on your coolness factor -- as in rubbing your groin against a cold cheesegrater, but not much else.


    Anyways, I'm not trying to make enemies here,or make anyone feel uncomfortable, or force my beliefs on anyone at all. Nobody can stop you from killing yourself if you want to. My goal is to preserve all life cause I VALUE all of it. As for it's legalization, I highly doubt it would happen. There's too much controversy
     
  12. Merlijn curious cat Registered Senior Member

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    "Doctors should not assist suicide unless it is desired for just reasons (as in, being a vegetable...)."

    "As for euthenasia, well, difficult subject. When a person is brain dead, yes, do it. That person is no more than a vegetable then."

    why pick on the vagetables?

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  13. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    "Tyler.....High???"

    Not in the slightest.



    "Do you feel threatened or something?? sounds like it. You better watch out, cause if you try and commit suicide, I just my try and stop you!!! !!!!"

    Am I threatened? By someone trying to force their morals on me? Yes. I don't like someone saying that something is 'wrong' to them and therefore I can't do it. If, however, they present me with logicalproof of why it should be illegal, I will gladly step down.



    "I'm supporting life, living it, instead of being a pussy as you seem to imply anyone who complains about an ailment is."

    Anyone who complains about the flu to the point of wanting to kill themselves is, in fact, a pussy.



    "Imagine, you're nothing but a burden on your family. You think they dont have the slightest urge to get you off their back."

    If my family hated me that much........ Seriously though, I do not see that happening very often. And like I said before, only YOU in a SANE state should be allowed to make the choice. So that rules out the family saying 'kill him'.



    "Care to prove that, michio kaku? Should you be hearing these voices as an addition to 10 or so, currently talking to you right, now."

    You said 'what's existence without existing' and so I told you the answer. It's 'not existing'. And have you ever heard a non-existing being complain? Of course it's a dumb question, but I was hoping you'd pick up on that as your comment was a dumb comment.



    "Could it be that Euthenisia kills you? Something to think about..."

    When I read this line I realized how dumb you can be. That you have the right to die does not take away your right to live. Killing yourself takes away your life, but having the option of killing yourself in no way takes away your right to live.



    "Are you trying to tell me that in your eyes, murder and alcoholism are indistinguishable? People can be pressured into doing things they dont want to by two types of people: bad 'friends' and bad 'family'. When somebody's terminally ill, they're weak, dying, they dont know what to think. And when their families (people who they probably trust more that bad friends) say somethings okay, are they not bound to believe it?"

    No, I'm trying to show your dumb ass how having the option to die does not take away your right to live. And I've already covered multiple times how a person should have to be in a stable emotional and psychological state to make the choice of euthanasia.



    "I said you 'feel' like you want to crawl into a corner a die, not actually do that. The part where you say, 'I'm not a little pussy' also contradicts everything you've been trying to say. Arent people who are faced with euthenisia, pussies because they don't want to experience the life they can. Being a pussy or not shouldn't have anything to with you're will to live. Maybe on your coolness factor -- as in rubbing your groin against a cold cheesegrater, but not much else."

    Most of us don't feel like crawling into a corner and dieing during the flu. If I had the choice of being a vegetable or being dead, I'd choose dead. Not because I'm a pussy, but because being a vegetable is useless.



    "My goal is to preserve all life cause I VALUE all of it."

    I value many things. Doesn't mean I want to force my values on other people by laws. Well, actually I do. I just realize that's not fair.
     
  14. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    Yep!

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    You are right!

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    Vegetables should have the right to chose for their own deaths too.

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    I will think of another example to call people who are brain dead and kept alive only by machines. I think this people are better of when doctors "let them go", so to say. It's just their time then I guess.

    It's not that I agree on euthanasia in any case. It really is a difficult subject. Who decides when a person has to go when that person can not speak up for him/herself?
     
  15. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    "why pick on the vagetables?"

    'cause the fruits get pissy



    someone had to say it.
     
  16. Riomacleod Registered Senior Member

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    No one can give consent to another person to kill themselves. It's not possible. The decision is never made with a clear mind. With illness and pain looming ahead and bleak times, certainly the decision is always made under duress, and-in the US anyway-a contract can not be binding if one of the signers is under duress to sign. Beyond that, I don't think that it is the doctor's responsibility to have to help kill people. If I was a doctor, I certainly would give no help whatsoever to someone who was planning their own death.

    That being said, people have the right to kill themselves if they want. I'm certainly not going to stand by and let someone die, but one can always OD on pills or shoot oneself in the head, or jump off something really high. Hell, if you're really intent on it, try all three at once. One's bound to get the job done.

    Either way, this wouldn't be adding a law to any books. In fact, making an exception to the current murder law would be expanding the laws.

    Besides, why do you need a doctor to do it? I guess if you were in a hospital or something it would be hard, but you can always demand to be released and go home to kill yourself.
     
  17. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    There is a law - in the Netherlands, don't know exaxtly about the US - which is especially made up for euthenasia and it says that people who have no brain capacities anymore and are just kept alive by machines, can be "released" to die, if that is what their close, loved ones decide. After a certain time-period.

    I guess it's never easy, on anyone, to have to make such a decision and it's much more easy to talk about it than to actually be in that position of making that decision. So it's not all up to a doctor only.

    I agree that people who definitly made up their minds and want to kill themselves, simply can do so in very many ways. However, I think they should do it in a way, no other people get hurt (there will be people hurt always, though) in the progress. Like jumping before a train, which happens very often. The train-engineers from such trains have a lot of problems, because they see people jump before their eyes and try to hit the brakes as quick as they can, never in time, though.

    So that's where I am having "trouble" with people who kill themselves in that paticular way. I hope I make sense here. I woke up with a very cloudy mind and the clouds don't seem to disappear this day. I am sorry, hope it makes clear what I mean...
     
  18. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    Am I trying to stop you from doing it? no, I'm trying to make it harder for other people to throw their lives away 'cuz its easier. Anyone can kill themselves. Do you realize that suicide's illegal right now? If you really wanted to kill yourself, do you think you'd care

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    I doubt it.
    I'll provide you this link for some logic if thats you need.
    http://www.cmf.org.uk/ethics/twelve.htm
    logical enough? If you want Euthenesia to be legalized so it's easier for you to kill yourself if you ever want to, just because you might not value life to the extent of someone else, then you have selfish motives. I hold the best interests of the people. If you want ot kill yourself, you can, but it's just gonna be harder -------you gotta find a gun or a knife instead

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    For the last time, it's a figure of speach, man "you feel like crawling into a corner and dying".
    --Therefore, you just feel like dying, you dont ACTUALLY want to kill yourself as you seem to think.

    It can happen, and it has, I've heard such stories. Once is too much. Convenience shouldn't be granted through the sacrifice of human life. --YOu'd be surprised how cruel some families can be, believe me they're out there.

    Yes it can. Legalization advocates tourism of the option, as opposed to better alternatives. It makes it harder to kill yourself, although YOU STILL CAN.

    Yes it does. Read above. It can take away your right INDIRECTLY. Its not dumb if your brain is capable of reading between the lines and seeing how everythings affected. People always have the option of killing themselves. But sacrificing human lives for increased convenience is wrong. It doesnt matter how many lives.


    Pulling someone off of life support isnt euthenesia. If you mean eithenesia for the permanently bedriden, your also wrong. For one, there are many solutions and surprises in the world of medecine. 2) people can still enjoy life from bed or a wheelchair. What makes you think they cant? Either way, you've always got the option of a knife or a gun, right?

    You are saying that you want to allow a law for the legalization of euthenesia. If you've read the link above, you'll realize that this legalization can indirectly kill innocent people who dont want to die. You still have the option of killing yourself ofcoarse. Its not that Easy, and as I've saidsacrificing innocent lives for your miserable convenience is a clear sign of selfish behaviour. Now how is that fair?
     
  19. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    I'm so shocked at how dumb you are. I can't believe I have to deal with you and Nelson on one night. It's hard to imagine.

    "Am I trying to stop you from doing it? no, I'm trying to make it harder for other people to throw their lives away 'cuz its easier. Anyone can kill themselves. Do you realize that suicide's illegal right now? If you really wanted to kill yourself, do you think you'd care I doubt it."

    Euthanasia. In a hospital. When you are bed-ridden. I'm not argueing that suicide should become legal because, frankly, that's not necessary. Like I said earlier, anyone who is actually intent on killing themselves can do it VERY easily. I'm talking about people who cannot leave a hospital.

    That website is pretty dumb if you read through the whole thing. They compare legalizing euthanasia to the death doctors in Aushwitz. That's like comparing a pothead to a giant elephant that kills people for fun.



    "For the last time, it's a figure of speach, man "you feel like crawling into a corner and dying".
    --Therefore, you just feel like dying, you dont ACTUALLY want to kill yourself as you seem to think."

    And I'm telling you for the last time that in my eyes you're still a pussy. I keep up my training and play for my teams when I have the flu. I don't in any way at all feel like crawling into a corner and dieing. And I mean that in the metaphorical sense, the same way you do.



    "Yes it does. Read above. It can take away your right INDIRECTLY. Its not dumb if your brain is capable of reading between the lines and seeing how everythings affected. People always have the option of killing themselves. But sacrificing human lives for increased convenience is wrong. It doesnt matter how many lives."

    You're the dumbest human being alive. Hands down. Fox Mulder is dillusional. Nelson is looking at life through rose coloured glasses. But you're just plain dumb. Hands down, dumbest human currently in existence.


    Let me spell it out for you like I just explained it to my 6 year old cousin who could follow the logic:

    It is legal to drink.
    If you do not drink, does it take away your right to drink?

    No, you fucking dumb idiot. It does not.

    You have the right to kill yourself.
    Does this take away your RIGHT to live?

    No, you fucking dumb moron. Taking away your RIGHT to live would be DENYING your RIGHT to live. ALLOWING YOU TO KILL YORUSELF DOES NOT MEAN YOU DO NOT HAVE THE OPTION TO LIVE YOU IDIOT. Are you this dumb?



    "For one, there are many solutions and surprises in the world of medecine. 2) people can still enjoy life from bed or a wheelchair. What makes you think they cant? Either way, you've always got the option of a knife or a gun, right?"

    I couldn't enjoy life from a wheelchair. With my personality I could not. I need to be active. I go stir crazy if I'm not.


    "as I've saidsacrificing innocent lives for your miserable convenience is a clear sign of selfish behaviour. Now how is that fair?"

    I'm not killing people you fucking ass whipe. What I am doing is giving them the option of deciding their own fate. Now isn't that fair, idiot?
     
  20. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry Tyler, but you're wrong.

    If people are allowed to kill themselves, obviously they will, and then they will die, so they won't have the option of living.

    In other news, purple flying monkeys drank all the beer in my 'fridge.
     
  21. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    'Sorry Tyler, but you're wrong.

    If people are allowed to kill themselves, obviously they will, and then they will die, so they won't have the option of living."

    Nope, you're wrong hun. Once you are dead your right to life is taken away. The legalization of euthanasia (which is the topic at hand) does not take away your right to live.

    If we legalized euthanasia Xev, would you not be allowed to live?
     
  22. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    "Nope, you're wrong hun. Once you are dead your right to life is taken away. The legalization of euthanasia (which is the topic at hand) does not take away your right to live."

    Joking - hence the reference to flying purple monkeys - sorry. I meant to add a emoticon thingy, but then the Wings scored and - well.
     
  23. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    Haha, ah gotcha. That thing didn't sound like an Xev-like logic post!


    WINGS!
     

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