Environmental modification, ENMOD and our changing climate

Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by subhumn, Feb 15, 2013.

  1. subhumn Registered Member

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    The ENMOD treaty is specifically intended to prevent use of the environment as a means of warfare by prohibiting the deliberate manipulation of natural processes in order to protect the environment because these modifications could produce phenomena such as hurricanes, tidal waves or changes in climate. Unfortunately environmental modification can be used outside of conflict without any knowledge its occurrence.

    Convention on the Prohibition of Military or any other Hostile Use of Environmental Techniques – United Nations Treaty (Signed in Geneva May 18, 1977)
    http://weatherwarfare.worldatwar.info/docs/treaty.pdf

    The treaty created a list of phenomena that could result from the use of environmental modification techniques (this list is sourced from the United Nations Treaty above):

    “earthquakes and tsunamis; an upset in the ecological balance of a region; changes in weather patterns (clouds, precipitation, cyclones and tornadic storms); changes in climate patterns; changes in ozone currents; changes in the state of the ozone layer and changes in the state of the ionosphere.”

    I have found a document which was written by NASA. The document is labeled “The Importance of Understanding Clouds” (National Aeronautics and Space Administration).
    http://weatherwarfare.worldatwar.info/docs/understandingclouds.pdf

    The document explains that clouds regulate the planets average temperature and help to spread the suns energy evenly over the earths surface. The article also quotes:

    “Even small changes in the abundance or location of clouds could change the climate more than the anticipated changes caused by greenhouse gases, human-produced aerosols, or other factors associated with global change.“

    Environmental modification has a great deal more of an effect on climate than carbon. The scientific community has not acknowledged the existence of another defining argument for climate change, weather and environmental modification. The reason for this is that governments hide the existence and developments of their weather modification programs and the media is reluctant to publish anything relating to this topic. Have you ever seen a front page story in your national newspaper on weather modification and its effect on climate? Have you ever seen a prime time segment on any world news network on weather modification and its effect on climate?

    It is unfortunate that the ENMOD treaty prohibits only the “use” and not the “research” into environmental modification techniques. Since ENMOD it is evident that environmental modification has been researched and at very least tested. To what degree has our climate been effected since ENMOD?

    The treaty also aims to prohibit the use of any prohibited techniques within a States territory (sourced from the United Nations Treaty):

    “In particular, each State should enact criminal legislation to outlaw and repress the use of prohibited techniques within its territory and anywhere else under its jurisdiction or control.”

    The territorial prohibitions are not being adhered to. In the United States there are a number of civilian run weather modification programs and associations which continue to operate, for example “Weather Modification, Inc.” and the “Weather Modification Association”. While in China the “Beijing Weather Modification Office” runs as a unit of the Beijing Meteorological Bureau. The Beijing Weather Modification Office form a part of China’s nationwide weather control effort, believed to be the world’s largest and it employs 37,000 people nationwide. If the ENMOD treaty created a list of phenomena that could result from the use of environmental modification techniques, why are these programs, associations and nationwide weather control efforts continuing to operate?

    The treaty also states:

    “Any State with reason to believe that any other State is violating the Convention may lodge a complaint with the Security Council of the United Nations, on the basis of which the Security Council may conduct an inquiry.”

    Is anyone going to lodge a complaint? If a State was to lodge a complaint, would the Security Council make an inquiry? (Note the wording of the treaty “the Security Council “may” conduct an inquiry”).

    This treaty was enacted in 1976. Since then, what progress has ENMOD made?

    Is the United Nations and ENMOD doing the job they are required to do? I think not.
     
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  3. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, all the time. The president of the US just had a speech and he discussed how the addition of greenhouse gases effect the climate.

    If when you are talking about modifying the weather, you mean like making a tornado, a hurricane, a thunderstorm or a drought, no I have not seen that, but I have not seen any major news stories on leprechauns or unicorns either.

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  5. subhumn Registered Member

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    The ENMOD treaty was enacted because of Operation Popeye (a cloud seeing operation), and these weather modification companies do the same thing. The ENMOD treaty states that:

    “In particular, each State should enact criminal legislation to outlaw and repress the use of prohibited techniques within its territory and anywhere else under its jurisdiction or control.”
     
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  7. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    None of that is evidence that we can control the weather. You won't find any evidence because we can't control the weather. Seeding clouds is basically a joke it does almost nothing.
     
  8. subhumn Registered Member

    Messages:
    33
    There are governmental entities, associations and companies that work in that field.

    weathermodification.com
    Weather Modification Association
    Texas Weather Modification Association
    Beijing Weather Modification Office

    Also, where there is civilian, there is military...
     
  9. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    Subhumn, you and your lack of actual scientific knowledge is nothing more than a big fat joke! Why don't you take your nonsense and try spreading it where there aren't any intelligent, educated individuals?? Here, you'll receive nothing but scorn and rejection.
     
  10. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Except that carbon is real and the rest is not.
     
  11. subhumn Registered Member

    Messages:
    33
    I agree i will receive scorn and rejection because of the carbon trolls. I am presenting FACT, what part of this thread have I presented that is not fact.

    ENMOD listed a number of phenomena that could result from the use environmental modification. FACT

    ENMOD enacted territorial prohibitions because of Operation Popeye. FACT

    Some countries are not adhering to these prohibitions. FACT

    NASA says that “Even small changes in the abundance or location of clouds could change the climate more than the anticipated changes caused by greenhouse gases, human-produced aerosols, or other factors associated with global change.“ FACT

    Reality check Read-Only, you don't need to be a scientist to present the facts.

    I agree carbon is real. Its effect on climate, I am skeptical. Why cant you see past the carbon emissions argument?
     
  12. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    9,993
    All of your weather modification links and evidence is only about cloud seeding. Cloud seeding would only have a very local effect and the overall effectiveness of seeding is highly questionable anyway.
     
  13. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152
    Because the evidence says to call it as you see it.

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    Correlation improves in recent decades due to better measurement accuracy. Global deployment of sensors is one example.
     
  14. subhumn Registered Member

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    you should put a little "use of weather modification" line there also, starting from the 1950's.

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  15. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

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    So you take a blue marker and scribble on someone elses data and pretend it has any meaning?
     
  16. subhumn Registered Member

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    33
    If weather modification was considered as a argument for climate change then it would have meaning.
     
  17. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    9,993
    No, it would still just be a random line based on nothing.
     
  18. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152
    What does that have to do with what AlexG or origin just said? Note, you've just embroiled ENMOD in something far more ridiculous: to cover their tracks, they artificially dumped huge quantities of CO[sub]2[/sub] into the atmosphere . . . no doubt hoping that scientists would someday blame human activity for the crime! That takes conspiracy theory to a new low -- but let's get back to who scribbled on NOAA's data. Did you manufacture it yourself, or is it part of a larger conspiracy, one that wants to mask the harm of human activity by creating a pretense that some "other" cabal (other than fossil fuel industries) is causing global warming?
     
  19. subhumn Registered Member

    Messages:
    33
    Until weather and environmental modification is considered in the climate change debate, i don't think anyone can take the image that AlexG posted seriously. Don't we need all the facts before we can solve the climate change and global warming crisis?

    The ENMOD treaty created a list of phenomena that could result from the use of environmental modification techniques (this list is sourced from the United Nations Treaty above):

    “earthquakes and tsunamis; an upset in the ecological balance of a region; changes in weather patterns (clouds, precipitation, cyclones and tornadic storms); changes in climate patterns; changes in ozone currents; changes in the state of the ozone layer and changes in the state of the ionosphere.”

    ENMOD was enacted because of Operation Popeye, which was a United States military cloud seeding operation. In the United States there are a number of civilian run weather modification programs and associations which continue to operate, for example “Weather Modification, Inc.” and the “Weather Modification Association”. In China the “Beijing Weather Modification Office” runs as a unit of the Beijing Meteorological Bureau. The Beijing Weather Modification Office form a part of China’s nationwide weather control effort, believed to be the world’s largest and it employs 37,000 people nationwide. These civilian run programs do exactly the same thing as Popeye, seed clouds. It should not matter on what scale weather modification is used, collectively it could have the same effect. I believe that criminal legislation should be enacted to outlaw and repress the use of cloud seeding due to the fact that ENMOD was enacted as a result of cloud seeding.
     
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    12,804
    That would be as useful as legislation against creating armies of cloned giants.
     
  21. rodereve Registered Member

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    Do you have any other examples of environmental modification other than cloud seeding? And you'd do better to fight alongside the effects of carbon emission than against it...because from how I see it there's a fine line between environmental modification and climate change, one is intentional, the other is a consequence of gross negligence and apathy.

    For example, if you argued that countries move their big factories overseas to poorer countries not only because of cheaper labor costs, but because the byproducts released would not pollute their homeland (which would have taxing effects that reverberate in other areas such as health costs, agriculture/meat industry) but rather affect the overseas countries instead (meanwhile those poorer countries have less strict industrial pollution regulation) -- then you might have a point. But I don't think cloud seeding should be your championing topic
     
  22. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    13,101
    There is actually a lot missing from these charts, like taking into consideration large impacting changes like Wars, or technological movements.

    For instance you could collate the production of the auto mobile to cover not just the impact of all the produced cars running over time, but also the factories in which they are produce.
    In war time you have both the fires that burnt from bombing runs and the mass manufacturing machines that attempted to produce enough arms to win a war.

    There is then other technological movements, like for instance the use and expanse of Radiotelecommunications, from a simple morse signal to our current digital age, surrounded by thousands of ground antenna arrays that handle mobile communications right through to microwave dishes to connect those antenna's together and satellite systems to bounce signals around the world. (Radiotelecommunications uses "Dielectric" radiation, which would be absorbed by moisture in the atmosphere and bodies of water to produce changes to weather systems, it might even catalyse changes in algae blooms)
     
  23. LaurieAG Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    271
    Hi Origin,

    I suppose you think the people who produced the PDF file in the second reference on the following Wiki page are fairies who live at the bottom of the garden.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_decay
     

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