Entropy in everyday life

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by wegs, May 20, 2019.

  1. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    W4U and SSB have entirely missed the point. I suspect they're more interested in arguing than discussing.

    Indeed.
     
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  3. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    The offer to start a thread for you on this stands. Let me know if you would like to take it up.
     
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  5. wegs She knew how to fly all along... Valued Senior Member

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    Is entropy the opposite of harmony? I'd say that it's a measurement of disharmony?

    But, that would depend on how we define harmony.

    Oh no, here we go again.

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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think harmony has a scientifically well-defined meaning, except in the field of acoustics.
     
  8. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    No. Energy being spread out does not imply anything about harmony.

    Harmony, to extend it from its musical meaning, would imply sets of sine waves that are multiples of one another, so that you get constructive interference creating a new sine wave. This is the reason that consonant intervals in music sound pleasing.

    If you start talking about harmony, you are essentially talking about waves rather than statistics. As it happens, it has been said (by Peter Atkins, I think) that physical chemistry is built on two great pillars: statistical mechanics and quantum mechanics. We have been talking about the first in our discussion of entropy. You sound as if you may now be starting to embark on the second.
     
  9. wegs She knew how to fly all along... Valued Senior Member

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    Gotcha, okay. I'm thinking that harmony = order.
     
  10. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    I've been thunking about this.

    I don't think kilograms are logarithmic, or metres or seconds. What does that leave so there are "lots" of physical things, quantified logarithmically?
    For say, a gas in a container, would it be acceptable to have a logarithmic volume? Why or why not?
     
  11. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    I'll need to think about that a bit.

    I suppose order can take the form of regular repeating patterns. And a sine wave is a regular repeating pattern. But I think this is stretching things to a point at which there is not really any insight to be had.
     
  12. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Quite a few physical things in chemistry are derived from logarithmic expressions, such as anything to do with equilibrium constants (pH is a case in point), free energy relationships, etc. Basically anything where exponents come into play is likely to involve logs somewhere along the line.

    But I suppose it depends what you mean by a "thing". I'm sure you can employ the no-true-scotsman principle to define "thing" so as to exclude anything like that, if you want to.

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  13. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Agree feel the effects of gravity on the brick and feather

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    And as noted in this screenshot Gravity Force is also known as Weight

    But but but it does not say Weight Force

    Consider this - there is a colony on the moon
    They request a kg of XYZ
    Do they mean a Earth kg XYZ, or a Moon kg of XYZ?

    The concept has a different value depending on location
    Now it would not matter if the moon orders a mass of XYZ
    Earth would know the exact amount of mass of XYZ to send

    Even the colony on Pluto would get the same mass if so ordered, but ordering a kg would again bring up Earth kg or Pluto kg

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  14. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    In communications theory, the transmission of information involves error-correction.
    So you have to transmit information in an encoded form such that errors can be detected and corrected. Error detection is 'entropic' because there is uncertainty--random changes--so you need an encoding that means every bit (or character) is checked.

    Indeed the nature of transmission of information is intrinsically uncertain. The work done detecting and correcting errors also doesn't contribute to the information content which is something transmission has to preserve.
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I dug this up in regard to your question. Not sure if this is what you were asking. IMO, it seems to adress Harmony v Diffusion (Order v Disorder)
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5312126/
     
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  16. wegs She knew how to fly all along... Valued Senior Member

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    That's really beautiful

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    In my mind, I had it sorted out, as something perhaps metaphorical/philosophical. But, how great that there's a scientific explanation.
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    It just struck me that "weight" occupies a similar abstract philosophical concept as your "age".......

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    yes?
     
  18. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Yes

    There is no lump of age out there waiting to be discovered

    or time, or speed, or .........

    I am guessing that the number of non existent stuff out there which will never be found is fairly large

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  19. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    But that does not mean the weight is not physical. Unlike say energy, or momentum, or entropy (which this thread was about, once upon a time) - or indeed mass, for that matter - weight is directly measurable. You cannot get more physical than that.
     
  20. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    This is a sticky point with me (I guess)

    The directly measurable feature is GRAVITY, not the MASS

    Take the MASS to the Moon it's weight changes

    Take same mass to Jupiter, weight changes again

    For me a feature which changes in such a manner is OK as a concept but not something with a presence (the presence is GRAVITY, which is being measured)

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  21. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Not true. A spring balance or load cell directly measures force. Nothing else.

    The force can be weight of an object or a pull from a locomotive or the tension in a cable or anything. Force can be measured directly.

    Gravity (or gravitation) is a theory Newton invented, to account for the observation of one particular kind of force, exerted between objects due to something called their "mass", which is another thing we can't measure directly.
     
  22. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Mass is measured by using a balance comparing a known mass against a unknown mass

    Currently I am mass / weight / force overloaded

    Break time for me

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  23. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    All that does is compare two forces. You then infer a mass ratio from that, by assuming F=mg applies to both, g being a constant.

    There is no way that I can think of that measures mass directly.
     

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