Entropy in everyday life

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by wegs, May 20, 2019.

  1. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Oh damn!

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  3. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    My personal opinion is that you are better at this stuff than you seem to think.
     
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  5. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Yea, I don’t know if I’ve ever considered sorting cards by weight. But, if I were a magician......

    How about this...do you see entropy in action in your own life?

    Spoken like a true empath; thank you for being thoughtful

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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Are we talking about entropy or not? Seems to me that entropy is intimately involved with "stability" and "information retention".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    All around me and in myself as well. Age does seem to be directly connected to one's state of entropy....

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  9. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Entropy, yes. Entropy of DNA, yes, in both thermodynamic and information varieties.

    Stability of DNA? Emphatically no.

    That would be derailing the thread - again - you see.
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    More so than a deck of cards?
     
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Did you just claim that weight is defined by the symbols printed on them?

    You can't pick up, say, an anvil in one hand and a feather in the other and feel the difference in weight?

    Weight didn't exist before humans came along and stamped numbers on things?


    I think you'll want to restate that.

    So, there's only one way to order cards then? And it has to be using the symbols on them?

    I think you'll want to restate that too.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  12. river Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed

    Write4U

    Think more about what your saying .
     
  13. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    Throw a deck of cards from a decent height. Depending on local atmospherics, they should all be nicely distributed, but some might disappear (down a drain or because you threw the cards off a bridge, you dummy).

    Anyways, entropy is a fairly obvious "thing" in this experiment, the cards are scattered randomly I think would be a safe conclusion.
    Except, entropy really isn't a thing, at least not a physical thing (despite thermodynamics having energy per degree Kelvin). Nosiree, it's "just" a ratio, it appears when you have some kind of distribution (of energy, or equivalently of information in abstract messages).

    Oh hell, it's also taken as a logarithm, which means it can't be physical.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    You mean TD entropy or information entropy?

    This article I referenced argues that merely shuffling physical things (and that includes gas molecules) does not alter TD entropy.



    You mean TD entropy or information entropy?

    This article I referenced argues that merely shuffling physical things (and that includes gas molecules) does not alter TD entropy.

    http://entropysite.oxy.edu/shuffled_cards.html
     
  15. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Correct.
    My example was not with a 1/2 lb hammer; it was with a hammer-shaped piece of styrofoam - which will reach terminal velocity well before the steel hammer.
    Thanks for highlighting that detail for our readers.

    OK. Enough about cards. Back to main topic.
     
  16. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    How does that follow?
    Lots of physical things are quantified logarithmically.
     
  17. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    For your viewing pleasure...

     
  18. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    Well, a couple of observations: 1) a deck of playing cards is like a system of particles because you can scatter either of them randomly.
    2) a system of particles isn't like a deck of playing cards because particles aren't labeled, generally.

    Somehow this doesn't stop you defining entropy in terms of uncertainty/expectation in either case. You can even have a model that does label all the thermodynamic particles, and you get the same general result as when you don't. Thermodynamic and information entropy are the same if you use them in the same physical context, which is to say they're the same if you use information theory to derive a gas constant. That last is easier than it looks.
     
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  19. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    **Just my opinion**

    The deck of cards can be used to describe entropy whether we are talking about info entropy or TD - because (imho) using this visual, we can easily see that disorder comes more naturally than order. We have to work at picking up the fallen cards, scattered onto the floor after dropping them. We have to put them back ''in order.'' That takes a lot of energy, but it takes very little energy for the cards to remain - unordered (disordered) As we have seen in this thread, it's really easy to go off on a tangent however, separate and away from that concept. But, generally speaking - the deck of cards offers enough convenient examples to understanding entropy, and how nature generally has a tendency to move towards lower energy. (higher entropy)


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  20. river Valued Senior Member

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    Yes the cycle of energy forms . That is Nature .
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  21. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    So, getting away from cards for a moment...

    Would the Big Bang be considered minimum entropy? Was it (beginning of the universe) at zero?
     
  22. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Technically correct

    Weight is a CONCEPT and has no physicality

    So no need to restate

    Perhaps one of you two are confusing WEIGHT with MASS

    Of course MASS exist (it's the stuff all around)
    WEIGHT on the other hand does not exist, it's merely a relationship number with, again, no physicality

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  23. river Valued Senior Member

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    Disagree , to your last statement .

    Weight is the density of any mass . Lead and Gold for example .

    And yes Mass exists . And so does its density per cubic , what ever your measurement is based on .
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019

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