Empirical Evidence of God

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Bowser, Jul 5, 2018.

  1. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    These examples aren't fundamental.
    To the atheist they needn't be, because for them, they have convinced themselves there is no God.
    The modern atheist finds themselves in a position where they have to maintain their atheism.
    They cannot simply accept that they have decided to not accept God.

    If only it were that uncomplicated.

    I'm not beyond reach Dave. I just don't agree with you, and will show you how you are mistaken at every turn.

    jan.
     
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  3. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    No problems Jan.
    We are falible and just because you are does not erode my respect for you.

    And I add that I am fallible so please take it that I dont presume to judge you.

    Your defence of a position that cant be defended gains my respect if for no other reason than you strive to maintain your undefendable position.

    I would love to find there is a God and that the fate of the world is not in my hands☺ but as he does not show himself you can see why I feel I need to help folk such as yourself find enlightenment.

    I have been sitting here bathing in my enlightenment which is sortta selfish when folk like you still need help to find the path to truth and reality.

    But I am just a man and I cant do more than a man can manage.

    Still I ask myself should I show the path to enlightenment to folk who are unable to set out on their own... free from the superstitions that they obviously need to maintain some control in their unguided existence.

    I have appeared too early in your journey no doubt but later say in twenty years my observations may help you find enlightenment and when you do I say it is you that has found enlightenment rather than me showing it to you.

    I have high hopes for you Jan.

    You are intelligent and worthy of respect so I just know you will at least arrive at the truth on your death bed and that will be nice knowing as life leaves you that one of your final recollections will be of me ..the only human who has been entirely honest with you. ..and I seek no thanks because all I want is to free one person from the oppression which is the god story.

    As you realise you are dieing I will be in your thoughts and I say that is when you will find the strength to manage the lack of meaning to your existence in the sense that you seek.

    Please dont fear death it is no more than a full stop on a wonderful life...it is where the story ends for each of us...but at least you were here for a short time...no one will remember you when all here have died but really does that detract from the time you were here Jan.

    I dont even know if you are Jan or that a Jan is real but for those looking on the entity of Jan did exist until they also die.

    The role of superstition in the evolution of humans is interesting.

    Superstition may be the thing that protected us from extinction. .. and so we must respect what it has enabled the species to achieve.

    I look for a time where we can be all we can be and think rationally and throw off superstition and somehow take responsibility for ourselves that currently most humans reject.

    The crutches humans rely upon one day may be gone and at that point what will we achieve.
    I dont like the term atheist because I find myself drawn to a position that is unreal. No God has been established for me to reject.
    A non event.

    Why should I bother to address the made up stories when it is simply a non event.

    I must reject a notion that presents without foundation...I chose now to ignore theist claims and the universe is still real.

    That is why I must simply say sure if you want a God have one but know that you believe in something that you have invented and know that position does not address reality.

    I feel my observation is simply an observation and when I think it through my atheism is no more than the default setting for a rational human.

    Does your avoidance to the propostion laid before you not alert you to anything?

    Its not about winning an arguement Jan ...it is about finding the truth and exposing the nonsence that seeks to control us through lies and fear.

    Its all made up, it is implemented to control the masses...the fact you surrender to the control is unfortunate but you could do better...

    ????

    A loose terminology to describe the grouping of various stories where a made up God is created in the absence of fact and observation.

    All the camp fires stories from the bronze age where inquisitive minds put forward speculation upon creation and the meaning of life.

    Humans want answers and a bad answer is rated as superiour to a no answer or an honest "I dont know" and so nonsence will be regarded as better than an honest realisation that we actually not only dont know but probably can never know.

    I find the arrogance of humans professing they are informed when they are ignorant sickening beyond description.

    Thank you for accepting my position.

    But I do Jan.

    I am a careing person.

    Do you think it makes me happy to see folk conned and pressured by fear of a non existent hell to opt for mindless subserviance to a non existent entity.

    I dont like to see folk conned that is my bottom line.

    I have no need to control anything.

    That is my power.

    The game runs without me being there... but the fact you choose such words indicates that it is perhaps you that feel a lack of control or perhaps even the need to consider control is indeed an issue.
    It is not.
    Alex
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
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  5. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    So it's only part of language if it works to prove your point? Don't be so absurd, Jan. We can happily talk of "my own sense of I". Because referencing ownership like that distinguishes it from anyone else's. I'm sorry if you don‘t accept that, and I'm sorry if it pours water on any linguistic argument you might have thought you were making, but that's what happens when you come up with patently ridiculous notions.
    Well, I'm fairly sure I cant fit a family four plus luggage into my fingers.
    How quaint.
    If some want to consider it such then for them, at least, it is. Or at least it iwould be their opinion of the answer.
    Then feel free to demonstrate otherwise one day. I genuinely look forward to it. Until then my view will remain unchanged.
     
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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    This, Jan, is what beyond reach looks like:

    1] You deliberately frame it as if your stance is already granted, when you are simply a person with a view like everyone else. This is begging the question.
    2] You deign to declare how atheists think. Even when there are atheists who will tell you, so you don't have to guess and get it wrong. This is a straw man.

    You haven't proven me wrong - or anyone else here wrong - because you don't address our points.

    What you've done is create a straw man and then proven that wrong. And we all agree with you: As you describe this fictional construct you label as atheist, it is totally false.

    So, can we all agree to dispense with it? If you weren't beyond reach, we would be able to address the actual atheist views, firsthand.

    But you won't. You are doing the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying ''La la la'. You are helping our case by going catatonic.
     
    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.
  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Matt Dillahunty says being an atheist means that one does not believe there is a God and really he is not interested in proving such no god) relying upon the fact that any claim presenting God needs to be supported.

    He has as an annoying insistence for those making a claim to provide evidence.

    No one does...ever.
    All they offer is "my faith"...

    So an atheist is not without God as Jan would have it.

    If a theists mentions God we need to pull them up and ask for evidence...but wait I have asked for evidence over and over and I never get a reply presenting any evidence ...which means all claims remain well mere claims.

    The case for a God is non existent which tends to support my belief that the religious game is no more than a horrible con job perpetrated upon simply folk who think superstition is a great way to arrive at a world view.

    Belief is not evidence nor is the tired reply..but I have faith...what a cop out.

    The only reason one must employ faith is because in the absence of evidence one must simply believe the various God stories...One involves a talking snake and another that a world wide floor, was caused by this non existent made up God, to kill all humans bar a select few...and given this flood was supposed to happen around 4500 years ago one wonders how the pyramids were built when the world population would have been extrodinarily small fighting to recover numbers...and what about the Chinese how come they did not notice it and record something of the event.

    But what gets me is this "new covenant" roll out...we ask about the endorsement of slavery or the killings called for by God and we get "new covenant" so the old testament does not apply...only JC said they did.
    Theists conveniently claim JC set aside the old law whereas it seems the story says the opposite...are they stupid or dishonest?

    The whole thing (god stories) is so full of holes it is absolutely amazing that there are simple folk who believe it...


    Alex
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  9. sweetpea Valued Senior Member

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    What is the point of '' nature evaluating itself?'', that is something Nature as come around to doing. Evolution has no plan. As I said, intelligence could be an evolutionary dead end.
    Seen from what perspective? I'm Nature too. Weeding. Nature is red in tooth and claw.
    Models. Remember what I said about instincts? Instincts can be triggered by stimuli (information).
    www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/06/how-consciousness-evolved/485558/


    What?

    Who is the ''mine'' and ''I'' here if not a self aware god? ..."Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord" ?
    You won't be answering questions you don't like then? And just using the blue censor marker on the parts of scripture which don't agree with your interpretation
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  10. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    I don't. Jan's value in this debate is worthless and should simply be ignored.
     
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  11. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    The easiest way to go about it is to prove that there are some who possess belief, then rationalize belief in life as hope, then prove this hope's respect with love.
     
  12. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes I can understand your view but he is so far down the rabbit hole I hope the only option is up.
    One wonders if Jan has any idea of his difficulties in holding an honest discussion.
    Nevertheless Jan offers an example of .....
    Alex
     
  13. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    ..a dishonest discussion? I don't need more examples of that.
     
  14. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    A piss poor education

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  15. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I know a fella who cant read or write and yet he can think things through.

    There are folk who can think for themselves and others who look to others to dictate what they should think.

    Anyways it seems what Jan needs is to embrace the concept of evidence.
    Alex
     
  16. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Needs to be ignored or his post placed in a thread called

    DO NOT FEED

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  17. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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  18. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Then drop the designation, because essentially, that is what atheist means.
    The problem is, you cannot drop the designation, no matter how you try, because you would have to accept God.
    Either you accept God, or not. There are no in-betweens.

    There is plenty of evidence that offer God as the best explanation. You simply deny, and or reject it.
    The fact is that you cannot accept God while you are an atheist, and no amount of explanation is going to change that.
    You have to change yourself.

    You're not interested in finding evidence. You're interested in killing the very notion of God.
    You simply do not want God to be, so you block anything and everything that is positive, and only concentrate on the things you think are negative.
    You're an atheist Alex, and only you can change that.

    You have no idea of what evidence would be, because you know that we're not talking about some being who is separate to His creation.
    You prefer to view God as Santa Claus, Big Foot, or whatever you care to name, because it helps you to remain ignorant of what you know in your heart to be true.
    That is why you can't let it go. You need to have to last word so you can feel satisfied.

    These ''stories'' aren't what makes one believe in God.
    You need to begin with belief in God, not stories about God.

    First you have to determine who, and what God is. But you daren't.

    jan.
     
  19. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Because nature feels like it?

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    Good question.
    You should try and answer it honestly.

    In what way are ''you'' nature?

    Instincts are patterns of behavior, and behavior means the way one acts and conduct themselves. So it would appear one has to be conscious, in order to exhibit any type of behavior.
    So again I ask. How is consciousness a part of nature, when nature left to it's own device is clearly not conscious?

    What is the ultimate advantage of instinct? We see species become extinct, but what does it matter?
    If every living being became extinct, and the universe imploded, becoming lifeless fragments, how is that anymore of an advantage, from your worldview perspective?

    I didn't say God isn't self-aware. I said God didn't become self-aware. Self-awareness is God in total.
    We are self-aware because God is self-aware.
    Your problem is that you have divorced yourself from the comprehension of who and what God is. So for you, if God exists, then God is out there waiting to be discovered.
    You've convinced yourself of that.

    Why do you accept there is no God, despite what you may think?
    You do so because that is your fundamental position. You come into a discussion already accepting that.
    I come into a discussion accepting my fundamental position.
    Your problem is that you cannot tolerate my position, and seek eliminate it, so we have to work with your position as standard.
    That's not going to happen.

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    jan.
     
  20. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    1] Take a look at both sides of the discussions.

    2] I have never declared how individual atheists think, unless I get to know something about why they are atheist.
    But atheists do not care what theists determine about their positions. They simply tar them with a tainted brush. If you don't believe me, look in this thread.
    I explain the fundamentals of their designations. What it means.

    That is what atheists do. The moment you ask for evidence of God, you create a strawman.
    You assume God is out there. Separate from you.
    No theist believes in a God that is not both within, and without.
    You do not want accept God, so you create an imaginary god, and ask for that to be proven to your criteria.

    ''Actual atheist views'' do not explain anything. They merely ward off anything that is to do with God.
    ''Actual atheist views'' are concerned with maintain their atheist position.

    jan.
     
  21. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    There's nothing to prove. It's woven into any language, because it is fundamental.

    Whose fingers?

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    Why would it?
    It's entirely normal.
    The question is, why isn't it so for you?

    I don't believe you really feel that way.

    jan.
     
  22. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    So you believe, Jan. So you believe.
    The person who owns my sense of I, my sense of self - and according to you that can't possibly make sense.
    Why would it what?
    It's entirely normal for children to believe in fairies or other mythical creatures. It's entirely normal for people to believe in superstitions.
    I learnt to think for myself, Jan.
    Which part, that I'm genuinely looking forward to the day you stop portraying someone who has given it minimal thought, and stop relying on repetition of mantras and statements of belief in lieu of argument? Or the part that my view will remain unchanged until you do?
    Whichever it is, you'd be wrong. You can even test that, if you want: simply stop portraying someone who gives these matters minimal thought, stop relying on repetition of mantras and statements of belief in lieu of argument, and see whether my view of your improves. Simples.
    Until then, your statement of not believing me is pretty much irrelevant.
     
  23. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Just remember if you are not believed in the default is you exist

    I think (I use the word think very lightly) the idea behind the concept is if you are not believing in something ergo there HAS to be SOMETHING for you NOT to believe in

    That's why I have monsters under my bed and because I could not believe I had won the Miss Universe contest I have the trophy in my cabinet

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