Eleven and Twelve

Pfft. :p
But it's not third and teen, it's three and teen. Albeit mangled for easier pronunciation. (Metathesis).
Imagine saying threeteen, and you get the picture!

three teen is better than preteen . Even a 12 year old knows that . Eleven and twelve are special . That is the real reason . Preteen . Emerging markets of the youth . Whats it called in Jewish rituals . Barmizfa ! For Me and my cronies it is when we first sneaked out of the house and went and drank beer with the older kids.
 
So how did German end up with duzend if English got it from the Normans?
Sorry, I don't have access to etymologies for any language other than English. There's an online German etymological dictionary, but it only contains a few simple words.
I figured if "thirteen" was from "third" and "teen", I'd do a "first" and "second" into "firsteen" and "seconteen".
"Thirteen" is not derived from "third." Both words (as well as "thirty") are derived from "three." Proto-Germanic thrith, thri-ten and thri-tikh underwent phonetic changes that the basic word thri did not. This is a common phenomenon. The way phonemes change over the centuries is heavily influenced by the phonemes to which they are adjacent.
I don't know about your impotent Welsh tongue, but my nimble American tongue has NO trouble with that at all! ;)
Then I assume you can pronounce the name of the town Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch? (Sorry, the text editor keeps putting that space in. It's all one word.)
Whats it called in Jewish rituals . Barmizfa !
It's spelled and pronounced Bar Mitzvah. Hebrew for "son of the commandment." It's the Jewish analog of the Christian confirmation ceremony. A boy is presented as an adult member of the tribe, after proving that he has successfully studied and understood certain key elements of Judaism and Judaica, for example being able to read the Torah in the original language and explaining what it means to modern people.

The female equivalent is Bath Mitzvah, "daughter of the commandment" usually rendered as Bat Mitzvah or Bas Mitzvah in liturgical Hebrew or Modern Israeli Hebrew. This is a more modern ceremony. In ancient times only the boys were expected to study the law and the language, which I find strange since Jewish law defines "Jewishness" as being passed down from one's mother rather than one's father.
 
das Dutzend -s -e
Middle High German totzan, totzen <- Old French dozeine, to doze <- Latin duodecim 'twelve'

(From Duden Deutsches Universalwörterbuch)
 
Eleven in German is elf, not einzehn.

Twelve in German is zwolf, not zweizehn.

But thirteen in German is dreizehn. And so on.

Any coincidence??
 
Indeed, there is no mistaking the influence of our ten fingers on the “selection” of the base of our number system. In all Indo-European languages, as well as Semitic, Mongolian, and most primitive languages, the base of numeration is ten, i.e., there are independent number words up to ten, beyond which some compounding principle is used until 100 is reached. All these languages have independent words for 100 and 1000, and some languages for even higher decimal units. There are apparent exceptions, such as the English eleven and twelve, or the German elf and zwölf, but these have been traced to ein-lif and zwo-lif; lif being old German for ten.
Number: The Language of Science, Tobias Dantzig .
 
I remember reading about one of the languages of Southeast Asia or Oceania in which "eleven" is rendered literally as "now I have to go down and start using my toes.
In Te Reo it's Tahi, Rua, Toru, Wha, Rima, Ono, Whitu, Waru, Iwa, Tekau.

From there it's Tekau ma thi, Tekau ma rua, Tekau ma toru and so on - which translates as Ten plus one, Ten plus two, Ten plus three (and so on).

Twenty is Rua tekau, Twenty one is Rua tekau ma tahi.
Thirty is Toru tekau and so on up to 99 which is Iwa tekau ma iwa. (Nine tens plus nine, I believe).

One hundred is kotahi rau. Rau means leaf, but it can also be used to mean Multitude (I think).

101 becomes kotahi rau ma tahi, 200 becomes rua rau and so on, up to 999 which is iwa rau iwa tekau ma iwa.

1000 is Kotahi mano.
1001 is Kotahi mano ma tahi.
2000 is rua mano.
2011 is rua mano tekau ma tahi
2061 is rua mano ono tekau ma tahi.
10000 is tekau mano.
And, presumably 100,000 is kotahi rau mano, but I don't recall having dealt with numbers that high in Maori.
 
#13
Why "firsteen" and "seconteen"??? The pattern would dictate "oneteen" and "twoteen"--or more likely "twainteen," which by now would have degraded into "twenteen," just as "twainty" became "twenty."More on that in a moment.

Proto-Indo-European had a word for "hundred," kmtom, and in fact the traditional taxonomy of the Indo-European family is based on the evolution of that word. In the Eastern subfamily the K softened to S (Russian sto, Sanskrit satem), while it was retained in the Western subfamily (Greek hekaton and Latin kentum-- spelled "centum"). We still often refer to them as the Satem Languages and the Kentum Languages--although ironically that K quickly changed into H in German hundert, S in French cien, CH in Italian cento and TH in Spanish ciento.

This indicates that the tribe had developed basic arithmetic and used the decimal system. However, they apparently had not developed a standard way of naming two-digit numbers, because none was passed down to us. Today there are myriad systems: twenty-six in English, six-and-twenty in German, twenty-and-six in Spanish, six-on-twenty in Czech, etc.

The Germanic languages are unusual (if not unique) among the Indo-European languages, for treating 11 and 12 differently from the other "teens." As Dywyddr noted, "eleven" and "twelve" are special words leftover from Stone Age counting: "one left" and "two left" after running out of fingers. This is, however, not unusual from a global standpoint. I remember reading about one of the languages of Southeast Asia or Oceania in which "eleven" is rendered literally as "now I have to go down and start using my toes."Not convincingly. Besides, the twelve pattern is hardly limited to the anglophone community. The reason we have the word "dozen" is that the Normans had already coined the word douzaine, a noun formed from the number douze. (Which is Latin duodecem, "two-ten".) They also gave us the word "gross" for twelve dozen.

I wonder whether twelve was simply a handy number for use in business, since a dozen doohickeys can be broken up and sold separately as groups of two, three, four or six. Ten doohickeys only give you groups of two or five.

The Romans and Greeks also found twelve to be a useful number, not to mention sixty, which can be factored by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 15, 20 and 30! The Mayan calendar, which has lately become notorious, has a sixty-cycle, as does the Chinese lunar calendar.

Everyone who's studied French is amazed by the way they count between eighty and one hundred. 98 is read as quatre-vingts dix-huit, "four twenties and eighteen." This suggests that the Franks might have had a vigesimal (base twenty) number system before they were Romanized.You need to review the paradigm of phonetic shifts from Proto-Germanic into Modern German. Zehn (which BTW is pronounced "tsane," not "zane") is the same word as "ten." Zwei is "two," zahn is "tooth," setzen is "sit." In many positions Proto-Germanic T became German TZ; although in many others it became S: besser = "better," das = "that," essen = "eat," etc.No. Humans have always had ten fingers. There is an ancient word for ten in virtually every language family for which we have reconstructed a proto-language. Not so for twelve.

There is some suspicion that a base-five number system may have come first. The Basques are almost surely the descendants of the Cro-Magnon people, the first Homo sapiens explorers to settle in Europe. The Basque language borrowed the Spanish word for "six."

Hundred in sanskrit IS NOT satem, but shatam. Please polish your knowledge of Sanskrit before using the words. Sanskrit is 100% phonetic.
 
Eleven in German is elf, not einzehn.

Twelve in German is zwolf, not zweizehn.

But thirteen in German is dreizehn. And so on.

Any coincidence??

In Dutch it's: tien (ten), elf (eleven), twaalf (twelve), dertien (thirteen), veertien (fourteen), vijftien (fifteen), etc.
 

Unfortunately, there is no standard scheme of transcribing the devanagri into Roman script without complicated dicritics, which everyone does not understand, me for example. Sameway they cannot be transcribed into devanagari. Then some people use s for श, whch can be misleading. So, sata misleads. But shata is clear.

In my s/w, śatá transcribed as ?अत
 
Hundred in sanskrit IS NOT satem, but shatam. Please polish your knowledge of Sanskrit before using the words. Sanskrit is 100% phonetic.
Sorry, satem is indeed not a Sanskrit word, but Avestan, a member of the Old Iranian language group. My error. Avestan is the language of the Zoroastrian scripture, which comprises virtually all the evidence we have of it.
 
It could be the Avestan language, which is so like archaic Sanskrit of Rig Veda that it can be understood only as a variant of Sanskrit. This in turn influenced the Persian language.
 
So is shit!

Fuck doing linguistics with a Hindu. :rolleyes:

Shit is only clear when its shit, not when its sit.

You can sit to shit but can you shit to sit or shit to shit or sit to sit?

He's making a perfectly valid point. In a phonetic language, the sound of the letter defines its meaning.
 
Shit is only clear when its shit, not when its sit.

You can sit to shit but can you shit to sit or shit to shit or sit to sit?

Can a Hindu get off off his high horse?

Or better yet - Does the throne on which the Hindu does sit, consist of sit?


(So - how did you pronounce that last word?)


In a phonetic language, the sound of the letter defines its meaning.

There is no dispute about that.

But there is dispute over rcscwc's ability to explain and discuss a linguistic point.
 
Hello Fraggle.

To be sure, there is a word in Sanskrit sat too. सत. But it DOES not mean 100. It means real, reality, truth etc. In fact it can connote many meanings, depending on the context.
 
In a phonetic language, the sound of the letter defines its meaning.
I presume you mean "a language with a phonetic writing system," since the term "phonetic language" doesn't really mean anything.

Phonetic writing systems vary tremendously in their perfection. Both English and French use a phonetic alphabet (very nearly the same one) but both are ridiculed for the poor consistency between spelling and pronunciation that makes learning the written version of either language a daunting task, even for someone fluent orally.

Czech is often praised for having one of the best phonetic systems, but why does the letter C exist when its sound could be spelled just as accurately as TS? Why are there at least four different ways to transcribe the semivowel Y, one of which is a diacritical mark over a vowel, another to the right of a consonant?

I'm not familiar with the abugidas used for many of the languages of India. But I would suggest that the sheer number of symbols (each "letter" represents a consonant-vowel combination if I'm not oversimplifying) is a handicap to learning.

In any case, you're obviously referring to a phonetic writing system with a high degree of integrity. That leaves out English, where the letter named See is often pronounced K, the letter named Aitch never represents the CH sound, nor the one named Wye that sound, and Double-U is a reference to the letter's shape rather than its unusually consistent pronunciation.

It's impossible in a truly phonetic alphabet (i.e., each symbol represents only one phoneme) for each letter's name to define its meaning, because the symbols representing consonants have to have a gratuitous vowel added before the name is pronounceable. I suppose we could name a letter F or N, by simply dragging an FFFF or NNNN sound out rudely, but we can't do that with B or K. So we name them EF, EN, BEE and KAY, names which do not precisely tell us how they're pronounced.

In an abugida you can do that. You can also do it in a syllabary: the first row of the Japanese kana is A KA SA TA NA HA MA YA RA WA.
 
I like the elf thing with eleven. So if a Beowulf-era bean counter was adding on his fingers, and got past ten to eleven, the "elf" maybe is like a mnemonic for the reduction by removing the units digit and proceeding into the decades. So "twelf" would make a good mnemonic for the "second elf" (second time you had to remember it's reduced by a decade).

Just a wild ass guess. Latin languages that I know go from ten to (if I had to make up an equivalent) onesy, twosy, thricey, quadsy, quintsy...then they give up and go ahead and say 10+6, 10+7.... 20 etc.

I would also hazard to guess that Beowulf-era wordsmiths were beginning to develop the Christian prohibition against thirteen as the indoctrination was insinuating itself into their culture. Not sure how that reasoning might fit with the Germanic etymologies, or how or when they reflected Christian/Latin influences in stuff as basic as numeral nomenclature or whatever the term is for this.
 
the Christian prohibition against thirteen
Huh?

Not an unlucky number in medieval England, but associated rather with the customary "extra item" (e.g. baker's dozen). Superstitions began with association with the Last Supper, and the unluckiness of 13 sitting down together to dine (attested from 1690s). Most of the modern superstitions (buildings with floor "12-A," etc.) have developed since 1890.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=thirteen

(Previously given in post #11).
 
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