Eleven and Twelve

Discussion in 'Linguistics' started by superstring01, Sep 7, 2011.

  1. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    three teen is better than preteen . Even a 12 year old knows that . Eleven and twelve are special . That is the real reason . Preteen . Emerging markets of the youth . Whats it called in Jewish rituals . Barmizfa ! For Me and my cronies it is when we first sneaked out of the house and went and drank beer with the older kids.
     
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  3. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Sorry, I don't have access to etymologies for any language other than English. There's an online German etymological dictionary, but it only contains a few simple words.
    "Thirteen" is not derived from "third." Both words (as well as "thirty") are derived from "three." Proto-Germanic thrith, thri-ten and thri-tikh underwent phonetic changes that the basic word thri did not. This is a common phenomenon. The way phonemes change over the centuries is heavily influenced by the phonemes to which they are adjacent.
    Then I assume you can pronounce the name of the town Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch? (Sorry, the text editor keeps putting that space in. It's all one word.)
    It's spelled and pronounced Bar Mitzvah. Hebrew for "son of the commandment." It's the Jewish analog of the Christian confirmation ceremony. A boy is presented as an adult member of the tribe, after proving that he has successfully studied and understood certain key elements of Judaism and Judaica, for example being able to read the Torah in the original language and explaining what it means to modern people.

    The female equivalent is Bath Mitzvah, "daughter of the commandment" usually rendered as Bat Mitzvah or Bas Mitzvah in liturgical Hebrew or Modern Israeli Hebrew. This is a more modern ceremony. In ancient times only the boys were expected to study the law and the language, which I find strange since Jewish law defines "Jewishness" as being passed down from one's mother rather than one's father.
     
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  5. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    das Dutzend -s -e
    Middle High German totzan, totzen <- Old French dozeine, to doze <- Latin duodecim 'twelve'

    (From Duden Deutsches Universalwörterbuch)
     
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  7. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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  8. veggiepatch Registered Senior Member

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    Eleven in German is elf, not einzehn.

    Twelve in German is zwolf, not zweizehn.

    But thirteen in German is dreizehn. And so on.

    Any coincidence??
     
  9. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Number: The Language of Science, Tobias Dantzig .
     
  10. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    In Te Reo it's Tahi, Rua, Toru, Wha, Rima, Ono, Whitu, Waru, Iwa, Tekau.

    From there it's Tekau ma thi, Tekau ma rua, Tekau ma toru and so on - which translates as Ten plus one, Ten plus two, Ten plus three (and so on).

    Twenty is Rua tekau, Twenty one is Rua tekau ma tahi.
    Thirty is Toru tekau and so on up to 99 which is Iwa tekau ma iwa. (Nine tens plus nine, I believe).

    One hundred is kotahi rau. Rau means leaf, but it can also be used to mean Multitude (I think).

    101 becomes kotahi rau ma tahi, 200 becomes rua rau and so on, up to 999 which is iwa rau iwa tekau ma iwa.

    1000 is Kotahi mano.
    1001 is Kotahi mano ma tahi.
    2000 is rua mano.
    2011 is rua mano tekau ma tahi
    2061 is rua mano ono tekau ma tahi.
    10000 is tekau mano.
    And, presumably 100,000 is kotahi rau mano, but I don't recall having dealt with numbers that high in Maori.
     
  11. rcscwc Registered Senior Member

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    721
    Hundred in sanskrit IS NOT satem, but shatam. Please polish your knowledge of Sanskrit before using the words. Sanskrit is 100% phonetic.
     
  12. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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  13. Enmos Staff Member

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    In Dutch it's: tien (ten), elf (eleven), twaalf (twelve), dertien (thirteen), veertien (fourteen), vijftien (fifteen), etc.
     
  14. rcscwc Registered Senior Member

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    Unfortunately, there is no standard scheme of transcribing the devanagri into Roman script without complicated dicritics, which everyone does not understand, me for example. Sameway they cannot be transcribed into devanagari. Then some people use s for श, whch can be misleading. So, sata misleads. But shata is clear.

    In my s/w, śatá transcribed as ?अत
     
  15. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Sorry, satem is indeed not a Sanskrit word, but Avestan, a member of the Old Iranian language group. My error. Avestan is the language of the Zoroastrian scripture, which comprises virtually all the evidence we have of it.
     
  16. rcscwc Registered Senior Member

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    721
    It could be the Avestan language, which is so like archaic Sanskrit of Rig Veda that it can be understood only as a variant of Sanskrit. This in turn influenced the Persian language.
     
  17. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    So is shit!

    Fuck doing linguistics with a Hindu.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Shit is only clear when its shit, not when its sit.

    You can sit to shit but can you shit to sit or shit to shit or sit to sit?

    He's making a perfectly valid point. In a phonetic language, the sound of the letter defines its meaning.
     
  19. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Can a Hindu get off off his high horse?

    Or better yet - Does the throne on which the Hindu does sit, consist of sit?


    (So - how did you pronounce that last word?)


    There is no dispute about that.

    But there is dispute over rcscwc's ability to explain and discuss a linguistic point.
     
  20. rcscwc Registered Senior Member

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    721
    Hello Fraggle.

    To be sure, there is a word in Sanskrit sat too. सत. But it DOES not mean 100. It means real, reality, truth etc. In fact it can connote many meanings, depending on the context.
     
  21. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I presume you mean "a language with a phonetic writing system," since the term "phonetic language" doesn't really mean anything.

    Phonetic writing systems vary tremendously in their perfection. Both English and French use a phonetic alphabet (very nearly the same one) but both are ridiculed for the poor consistency between spelling and pronunciation that makes learning the written version of either language a daunting task, even for someone fluent orally.

    Czech is often praised for having one of the best phonetic systems, but why does the letter C exist when its sound could be spelled just as accurately as TS? Why are there at least four different ways to transcribe the semivowel Y, one of which is a diacritical mark over a vowel, another to the right of a consonant?

    I'm not familiar with the abugidas used for many of the languages of India. But I would suggest that the sheer number of symbols (each "letter" represents a consonant-vowel combination if I'm not oversimplifying) is a handicap to learning.

    In any case, you're obviously referring to a phonetic writing system with a high degree of integrity. That leaves out English, where the letter named See is often pronounced K, the letter named Aitch never represents the CH sound, nor the one named Wye that sound, and Double-U is a reference to the letter's shape rather than its unusually consistent pronunciation.

    It's impossible in a truly phonetic alphabet (i.e., each symbol represents only one phoneme) for each letter's name to define its meaning, because the symbols representing consonants have to have a gratuitous vowel added before the name is pronounceable. I suppose we could name a letter F or N, by simply dragging an FFFF or NNNN sound out rudely, but we can't do that with B or K. So we name them EF, EN, BEE and KAY, names which do not precisely tell us how they're pronounced.

    In an abugida you can do that. You can also do it in a syllabary: the first row of the Japanese kana is A KA SA TA NA HA MA YA RA WA.
     
  22. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152
    I like the elf thing with eleven. So if a Beowulf-era bean counter was adding on his fingers, and got past ten to eleven, the "elf" maybe is like a mnemonic for the reduction by removing the units digit and proceeding into the decades. So "twelf" would make a good mnemonic for the "second elf" (second time you had to remember it's reduced by a decade).

    Just a wild ass guess. Latin languages that I know go from ten to (if I had to make up an equivalent) onesy, twosy, thricey, quadsy, quintsy...then they give up and go ahead and say 10+6, 10+7.... 20 etc.

    I would also hazard to guess that Beowulf-era wordsmiths were beginning to develop the Christian prohibition against thirteen as the indoctrination was insinuating itself into their culture. Not sure how that reasoning might fit with the Germanic etymologies, or how or when they reflected Christian/Latin influences in stuff as basic as numeral nomenclature or whatever the term is for this.
     
  23. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Huh?

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=thirteen

    (Previously given in post #11).
     

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