"Electromagnetic waves" do NOT EXIST!!!

"Electromagnetic waves" do NOT EXIST!!!

Demonstration: http://www.geocities.com/anewlightinphysics/sections/Section7-1_Electromagnetic_waves_do_not_exist.htm

NOTE:
The "waves equation" is a linear differential equation of second order and so only two solutions are possible: infinite planes with constant electric and magnetic fields in the entire plane! Not any other kind of solution is accepted.

 

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...yea...martillo does not exist...this thread does not exist either, because its on another frequency of wavelength of existence, but since I am on this frequency that means everything else just doesnt exist. yo

 

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People I advise you to not go to that site, as it contains great fallacies.

 

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Orthodox intolerance? Not new in the history of Physics...

Orthodox intolerance? Not new in the history of Physics...

 

Another little detail that appears to be too small to rate a mention at that site, is that Maxwell actually came up with 20 equations. The "four equations" mentioned are the simplified versions of Maxwell's formalism that survived Heaviside and others "simplification".

If they're presuming to tell everyone there are "four equations" in Maxwell's EM theory, they got that bit wrong, because there are in fact 20 equations in the original formalism. Mind you, most people end up learning there are only 4, but it's really "EM lite", you might say.

 

The wave equation gives finite plane wave solutions if you specify boundary conditions. All EM waves have a source, so you'd always be able to fix a boundary condition even if you're solving the equations for an empty region of space.

 

Not at all.
The plane waves are the possible general solutions. If you add boundary conditions you are determining the source of them (which are impossible to exist).

Please review the real math involved.
The possible solutions are:
E = E(kx +/- vt)
B = B(kx +/- vt) without any boundary condition.

Please be honest with me and yourself!

 

Ok mister, for your info I have completed 3 courses in electromagnetism (including graduate level), on top of partial differential equations, numerical analysis, classical mechanics, quantum physics, optics, relativity, you name it. And even then I still don't consider myself an expert in electromagnetism. Regardless, there's no need to go lecturing to me about such basic concepts when it's clear that you're the one needing a refresher.

If you set up oscillating boundary conditions, i.e. supplied by the lab, you can have plane waves existing inside the boundary without carrying off to infinity. In your case, the plane wave solutions you're talking about are the result of sources located at infinity. They still have sources- classical EM waves don't just pop up in a vacuum without an original cause. Indeed it is your physical situation which is impossible, that being a source at infinity generating infinite plane waves. The infinite plane wave mechanism is nothing more than an idealized approximation which works very effectively for many problems in electromagnetism/optics.

Now it's your turn to learn something about math. Any superposition of plane wave solutions to Maxwell's equations will itself be a solution. In fact, the general solution is an infinite sum of these plane waves, or more technically it can be expressed as a Fourier transform integrating over all wave numbers. There is nothing which says that such an infinite sum must itself be a plane wave- it could fall off to 0 at any distance you want even though each wave component carries off to infinity. Since all EM waves have an original source, you can always fix boundary conditions, which allow you to determine the superposition of plane waves which satisfies Maxwell's equations, and this superposition will not be an unphysical infinite plane wave. There, problem solved. Now be honest with yourself and go learn about Fourier transforms and wave superposition.

 

CptBork:

May be you can have this with water waves but I challenge to achieve them with electric and magnetic fields. Remember that the solutions imply constant electrci and magnetic fields in entire planes parallel to that planes!

Maxwell's equations are not aproximations of nothing, they must be verified exactly or the fields are not what it is said they are and so the solutions must also be exactly that suggested by them. Some experiments don't match exactly due to practical conditions but I challenge again: give me a good aproximation of plane waves with electric and magnetic fields as described above, I mean as suggested by the Maxwell's equations.

I don't know what Fourier's series have to do here since they are a transformation from a time-domain function to a frequency-domain function. I don't know how you will solve the problem with Fourier Transformations.
I think your idea is to sum an infinite number (a series) of the plane solutions to achieve some other solution (something more related to Taylor's series), may be more "practical" but sincerely I don't believe you will get a feasible solution. If you add many planes with constant values on it you will still have another plane with constant values on it. Even if you add infinite of them, provided convergence is achieved, you still will get an infinite plane with constant values in the entire plane and the problem will be the same!

 

Um, when I learned about it, Fourier transforms (in the frequency domain) were always in the time domain (frequency being a function of time, and all).

 

Wrong, the solutions are superpositions of plane waves, and such superpositions need not have the unphysical characteristics you specify. If you want to set up oscillating boundary conditions, you can do things like having capacitors on the boundary rapidly charge and discharge, or set up wires on the boundary carrying oscillating electric currents. If you can do it with water, you can do it with electromagnetism too. Don't ask me for specific details, that's for electrical engineers to worry about, I'm not an expert on this stuff. Naturally these conditions won't produce perfect finite plane waves, but they can come pretty close if you set it up right. It's irrelevant though- no physical solutions to Maxwell's equations produce infinite plane waves, only superpositions of such waves.

Point sources of light such as the individual points of a flashlight bulb emit spherical waves, which at large distances become almost identical to plane waves. Approximating these waves as plane waves gives very accurate solutions to many problems in optics, such as Fraunhofer diffraction. If you think Maxwell's equations can be verified exactly, past the millionth decimal point, using real life lab experimentation, then you don't know squat about physics. All we can do is verify that the equations give the correct predictions to within the bounds of experimental error, and this has been verified thoroughly, aside from quantum and relativistic corrections when the experiments get precise enough.

Who cares what you believe? It's called a Fourier spatial transform, look it up. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about here, because I never said Fourier transforms had to be restricted to the time domain. I said you add up plane wave solutions for various different wave numbers, which means spatial frequencies, not time. I assumed that since you were seeking to disprove Maxwell's equations, while treating me like some kind of grade school jackass, you would have already been familiar with how to solve them. Evidently I was mistaken.

I have a feeling whatever I post here is going to be futile, because I can see from your website that you've spent a long portion of your life trying to prove Maxwell and co. wrong, and it'll take more than a 5 minute argument to get you to see the futility of your efforts. At least I tried to give you some serious and accurate information on this subject, so you're welcome.

P.S.

On top of all that, the plane wave solutions you speak of only apply when the entire universe is devoid of all charges and currents, except for some initial fields set up at the beginning. Realistic solutions produced by real, physical charges and currents come from methods such as Green's functions and retarded potentials, not plane wave superposition. So even if your argument was correct for an empty universe (and it's not), it still would have no bearing on the validity of Maxwell's equations.

 

Martillo posted here.

Notice how I'm the one who told him about the general functions f(x+vt) and g(x-vt) and here he is, repeating it here. But he hasn't understood it.

You can never verify anything with 100% accuracy.

No, seriously, learn what a Fourier decomposition is before making such nonsense comments. Obviously you know nothing about linear algebra, orthogonal bases and trigonometric functions. Considering that \(e^{i(kx-vt)}\) is a vital function to anyone studying electromagnetism and you don't know, that doesn't do you any favours when claiming to understand Maxwell's equations.

You do realise that quantum electrodynamics, which talks about photons, gives Maxwell's equation as an effective model? That large quantities of photons will behave macroscopicly inline with Maxwell's equations?

No, I imagine you don't realise that.

 

Cptbork:

Of course they must specify such characteristics just because they are the possible solutions Maxwell's equations predict for them.

NO way, you won't have plane waves with these sources.

Then don't state something you don't know anything about.

Superpositions of such waves leaves to other infinite plane waves. If you add infinite planes of constant values you will also get infinite planes of constant values independently in the number of planes you consider. Even if an infinite series of planes you like to add (provided there is convergence) you will get again infinite plaqnes of constant values what means the same thing.

Maxwell's equation don't predict spherical waves but just plane waves.

Wow, you really know how to disregard someone...
Really I lost the interest in discussing with you.
Good luck.

 

Such an absurdity taht I won't repeat anything here in this forum (it has been well answered in that forum).

I know about them pretty well, the problem is that you don't know anything about me and so how can you state such things?

Why not? I uphold the photon's approach for light and believe Maxwell's equations right so why I would not realise that?

 

These are only perfectly accurate solutions to Maxwell's equations in empty space - ie. assuming no charges or electric currents exist in the region of space considered.

 

You just don't get it. Each plane wave on its own has unphysical characteristics. Summing these plane waves gives solutions which have perfectly reasonable physical characteristics. There is nothing which says that \(\iiint A(\vec{k})e^{i(\vec{k}\cdot \vec{x}-\omega t})d^3\vec{k}\ \) need itself be a plane wave. I told you to go look up Fourier spatial transforms and you ignored me. Now go do it so you'll stop looking like such a buffoon.

Seeing as you don't even know how to solve Maxwell's equations properly, I don't think you're qualified to comment on that. And I never said you get plane waves, just approximations.

Don't go there, or you'll dig yourself an even bigger hole than you've already managed. It's quite apparent from what you've said so far, that you know even less about this stuff than I do. Which is sad really, considering from your website it appears that you're the one who supposedly puts food on his table as an electrical engineer.

This just shows how little you understand about Fourier spatial transforms and plane wave superposition. Go look it up; better yet, go buy a proper textbook in electromagnetism or at least a book on partial differential equations so you can learn this stuff and stop speaking out of total ignorance.

Switch to spherical coordinates, and you get spherical waves. Go to cylindrical coordinates, and you get cylindrical waves. Any solution to Maxwell's equations in vacuum can be expressed using a basis set made up of plane waves, cylindrical waves or spherical waves- it's all equivalent. You can build plane waves out of infinite superpositions of spherical or cylindrical waves, and vice versa. Not that I expect you to understand any of this, as clearly you've never bothered to learn it.

Well you had it coming. You made a point, I made a counterpoint, and next thing you're telling me I don't understand the basic maths and need to go back to school. It's unfortunate if I pissed you off, but from your website you seem to have a pretty huge ego so it's kind of inevitable. Hopefully you'll actually decide one day to go research this stuff properly and then you'll learn just how much it is you don't understand at present. You'll be saving yourself a lot of trouble down the road in the future if you take my advice, but that's up to you. Good luck regardless.

 

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Argue with my raygun, Martillo!

Argue with this raygun babe, Martillo!

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He, he, he...