Egyptian girl strips to protest; western media censors her photos

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by S.A.M., Nov 20, 2011.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    No I am pointing out that "freedom of expression" for women has the same meaning in all societies. Its defined by what men will permit women to be and in all cases, women and their bodies are used as symbols of sexuality which are exploited for whatever reasons.
     
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  3. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Diversion.
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    No, degree. Is hair a provocation? Face? Shoulders? Eyes? Black lacy bras? Feet? [it was immoral to expose feet in Victorian times] Nipples? [there is an entire culture built around celebrity nipple slips] Who defines what is provocative? What provokes YOU about nudity?
     
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  7. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Diversion.

    You are simply advocating unilateral acknowledgement: men or "conservatives/traditionalists" should acknowledge women or "liberals", but women or "liberals" should be free not to acknowledge them.

    It is an ineffective, idiotic approach to bring about social change.
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    But I'm not an advocate for social change, I'm asking what provokes YOU about nudity. And why? Were you born this way? Arthur believes that people have a right not to be confronted by nudity. Whose nudity? Men, women, children, animals? What nudity? Hair, eyes, breasts? What kind? Photos, statues, pictures, movies?
     
  9. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    So you're just blasting hot air?
     
  10. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Irrelevant.


    The real issue is how to bring about a society that functions harmoniously.
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Again, based on what? I think everyone is equally capable of deciding for themselves. My perspective is - if you don't like it, don't see/do it. But that does not give me the right to tell that Naga sadhu that his religion has no meaning for me and so he needs to put on some clothes. My morality should not determine his level of nudity.
     
  12. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    15,058
    The principles of the Universe: what is really possible, and what is not.



    With an outlook like that, is it possible to bring about a society that functions harmoniously and is economically viable?
    It doesn't seem so.
     
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah I think so. I think we waste a lot of time worrying about inconsequentialities. Does it matter if you cover your legs when you type? Does it matter if you cover your head when you teach? Should the length of your skirt or the size of your bra be of significance in your job interview?

    If you don't show your nipples, are you not nude?

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    if you do show your nipples does it have any bearing on your intelligence?

    I like to exercise my choices. If I start a book - no matter the rave reviews, it has to hold my attention or I don't waste my time on it. I watch movies I like regardless of what anyone says about them. I should be able to dress to please me, not some artificial construct of morality based on the percentage of my cleavage or hair on display
     
  14. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    The concerns over how much skin is shown, how long the hair is etc. are secondary, or irrelevant altogether.

    The relevant issue is how can social change be brought about:

    We now are where we are.
    Some people have the desire to be somewhere else.
    Given where we are, how can we best get there?


    E.g. The laws in Muslim countries about what women are supposed to wear, are what they are. If you think those laws are not just, how do you propose to go about changing them?



    If you want to take that course, then:

    You'll have a lot of proving to do to show that it is an artificial construct.

    You'll have to show that "pleasing yourself" is a valid, empirically justified concept.

    You'll have to show that free will exists, that we have unique personalities that are more than just the result of nature x nurture.

    And probably a few more items.
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Why apply your own morality to other people? Its hard enough determining what is right for yourself without trying to implement what everyone else should do.




    To whom? Who are all these nebulous moral authorities with the ability to make that judgement?
     
  16. Sock puppet path GRRRRRRRRRRRR Valued Senior Member

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    No you are trolling you are taking someones legitimate gripe and trying to fit it to your standard agenda which actually has nothing to do with it.
     
  17. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Except that you missed on your proof, and forgot to add that in an emancipated society, females influence influence the limits of that expression. Not to mention that the male form can also be sexualized.

    And you're calling adoucette a Neanderthal?

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  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Remember the Statue of David episode form the Simpsons?

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    Apparently some nutty Christians actually did want the statue's penis covered up :shrug: (that may be a urban myth :-o


    As for the Egyptian girl, I fully support her and all her friends to take as many nude photos and post them on the net as is possible

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    On a serious note, I hope she isn't killed by some crazy Abrahamist :S BUT, there's tons of Muslim porn on the internet. Plenty of Muslim prostitutes. Why single her out for taking a photo? Is it because she looks "innocent"? I'm sure that was the look they were going for when they made the photo. Is shattering their poor wittle wet dreams of what an Egyptian woman is supposed to be. Well, too bad.
     
  19. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Don't hold my breath?
    Are you kidding?

    I haven't the slightest desire in seeing you naked, let alone touch you.

    As to your laughing issue, I'm actually not upset by nudity in the least.
    Except for the sanitary issues involved, so YES, I'd prefer you to keep your panties on.

    But a society is made up of more than just you SAM.

    There's no reason that everyone should conform to YOUR norms.

    Arthur
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2011
  20. Bells Staff Member

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    22,978
    Does it comfort you that we are heading the way of the countries you mentioned where women are sanctioned for showing flesh? Does it comfort you that the right in your country is pushing to deny women rights over their own bodies? Believe me, the West is not that far behind. We've gotten to the point where even cleavage is deemed so offensive that a skit on Sesame Street had to be banned because so many parents complained because you could see her cleavage. And she wasn't even naked.

    Look in the media, hell, look in this very forum and you will find men and women who supposedly live in the West, who blame women for their own rapes, who deem women to be responsible or share responsibility if they are raped.



    Of course. I mean she is commenting on how the West deals with nudity and your response is to discuss Saudi Arabia. Makes sense, yes? How about you be a bit less reactive and discuss why the West also censors nudity? And why are we getting worse?

    You see, this is interesting to me.

    Look at your reaction to Sam's views on how men in all society's are making the rules for what women can wear and not wear, including Saudi Arabia where women's rights are so lacking. Something you have been whining about for a few pages now. Yet, you completely ignore the post where one member is coming out and saying that women are to blame if they are raped if they somehow provoke men by wearing something that turns some men on. We have a poster, a woman, who holds the view that women should cover up to avoid being raped (apparently that is a preventative) and if they do not, then they share the responsibility for their rape and you are so focused on Sam because she *gasp* criticised the West, that you don't even notice that Signal holds the views that would have women dressed as they are forced to dress in Saudi Arabia. It is astounding.

    What do you think Geoff? Do you think people should be free to walk around naked if they so choose? Do you think women should be allowed to dress as they please without being forced by society to dress a certain way or have their nipples blanked out in the media? I don't want to hear about how the Saudi's ban even women's hair. We have covered that extensively and even Sam agrees with you on that point. I am asking you what you think.

    Do you even see the irony of this thread? A woman in Egypt strips to protest against her Government's view on nudity and women in general and the supposedly open West blanks out her 'nudie bits' lest it offends people. Would you find it offensive?
     
  21. Bells Staff Member

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    22,978
    So why should we conform to yours?

    More to the point, who are you and why should I or anyone else care what you think? If Sam wants to walk around naked, why should she care what you think or believe?
     
  22. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Come on Sam.
    You criticised those Israeli Women for their half hearted effort.
    Let's see you in the raw.

    Warn us first though, so we can brace ourselves.
     
  23. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, but not that far

    Er...we are??

    Sure sure, I remember Katy Perry and the Sasha Grey thing. There will always be critics, and sometimes more effective than others. But the levels of skin Perry was showing and the background Grey has are a pretty far cry from a society having a grande mal freakout because now someone's eyes are deemed too sexy for this deen.

    Of course. But so many and so vociferous as elsewhere? I doubt that most sincerely. Will we enact laws that throw women in the slammer for having too few witnesses, either at all or in any number approaching those places that get a social rights skim-job from Sam? Well, no. As far as the record goes, it appears we're getting far more liberal about the rights of the allegedly assaulted (I know you will balk at that term, but it's not mean as an attack) as time goes on. Granted, there arrives eventually in every trend a limit to the ways in which evidence is collected and accepted, or at which point legalistics lifts the process of justice from accuser and/or accused.

    I really don't agree that we are. Hell, it's more and more prevalent every day, it seems. Nude protests, nude PETA, nude sculptures, nude protests of nude laws. It all seems well in train. I mentioned the old Saudis, but one could as easily point at Egypt, Tunisia, Iraq and Iran these days.


    You see, this is interesting to me.

    Look at your reaction to Sam's views on how men in all society's are making the rules for what women can wear and not wear, including Saudi Arabia where women's rights are so lacking. Something you have been whining about for a few pages now. Yet, you completely ignore the post where one member is coming out and saying that women are to blame if they are raped if they somehow provoke men by wearing something that turns some men on. We have a poster, a woman, who holds the view that women should cover up to avoid being raped (apparently that is a preventative) and if they do not, then they share the responsibility for their rape and you are so focused on Sam because she *gasp* criticised the West, that you don't even notice that Signal holds the views that would have women dressed as they are forced to dress in Saudi Arabia. It is astounding.

    Hmmm - think that might be stretching it a bit. Naked where? There's such a thing as turning your head, but naturally societies do impart certain limits to personal expression. The limits of Western society are quite wide, of course, but finite within narrow periods. It appears that such limits are still moving, to my eye, and moving in the direction of increasingly liberal dress and comportment.

    Well, I'm sorry you don't like that comparison, but it's a relevant one: planks and specks, as they say.

    Not sure. But they provide the link; so what is lost, exactly? Tell me this: in which previous incarnation of our media would they have printed her, nips and all, that illustrates this anti-liberalizing trend you describe?
     

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