Actually, I think any society based upon ownership tends towards rigid class structures, as the haves try to wire their status into the social structure. Read a bit of "heretics" today. How can you not like a book that has: "HUmans live best when each has his place to stand, when each knows where he belongs in the scheme of things and what he may achieve. Destroy the place and you destroy the person." So true. But my aim is for people who are conscious that this is the case for many people, and therefore although destroying the place may cause some hassle, are ultimately more than their place in the world.
So some sort of socialism would lead to the most fluid society? India under the caste system. Confucian China. Medieval Europe. Perhaps people lived best then, but they weren't very creative societies. Noo, creativity flourishes when you shake the class system up. How else would we take our place in the universe? The world's a dead end, ultimately.
Not necessarily, but maybe. Some kind of effectively class less society would certainly be quite fluid, although it woudl likely decay back into feudalism. rememebr it took Herbert in Dune 3,500 years to get rid of pharoism. Actually, people don't realise how creative those societies were. The advances and creativity in all of them were rather large, it is just that because they were still stuck with an authoritarian society, things were never allowed to change as much as might be expected after the innovations came out. Then capitalism developed, and took over, with its drive to change and forced creativity. True. Thus is the ultimate tragedy of self awareness.
About how long it took the Egyptians. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! How could we make an effectively classless society? True, capitalism is a great catalyst. But look at how the theoretical sciences are neglected (at least in the US) these days: the superconducting supercollider is a good example. If that creativity isn't pretty immediately applicable, you're not going to get grants.
Ahh yes, the Egyptians. Another good point. Education and experience. The stereotypical communist way from the 19th century is have a revolution where the politically aware proletariat overthrow the capitalists and go on to create a classless society, with everyone working and everyone receiving the fruits of their labours. However I would still expect some problems because people are human and fucked up. I would rather say that capitalism is a catalyst for spreading inventions, but doesn't really encourage them. Many many inventions here in the UK, from antibiotics to mechanical potato diggers, were invented and developed using taxpayers money. All you need is to give inquisitive intelligent people some space and resources to investigate stuff.
And capitalism has changed drastically since the 19th century. Look at how "socialized" things like roads, schools, public works, all that have gotten. I'd say "at least in the US" but I think it's probably more noticible in the UK! Same here, and of course the universities have their part.
Yup, more noticeable in the UK. One of these little things they never tell you is that we had 2 communist MP's after WW2. Anyway, re-reading some of "Heretics of Dune", it seems to me that actually by that time the Tleilaxu had more stereotypically feminine characteristics, and the honoured matres had taken on more stereotypically masculine characteristics, with the BG being outside such considerations. Consider that the honoured matresactively controlled worship, and directed it towards violence, and the Tleilaxu avoided much violence and were more passive, yet also worshipped.
Oh, well hello Mr. Back on Topic. I don't know, in the Dune universe (the Duniverse?) there isn't a seperation of violence as masculine, only types of violence as masculine. Others are feminine, like the worship of Alia and the way the fish speakers (well, this is a strech) operated. GEoD has a lot on male armies vs. female armies.
Yes, thats true, I had forgotten the details about the difference between male and female armies. The thing is, it sort of almost fits in with what I have read in history, but I can't recall the details. In some cases in his books, I am pretty sure Herbert is making a definite point about human nature based upon history and science, but at other points he is making stuff up to make a point. The trick is separating them. But the honoured matre violence is definitely more masculine. Have you seen this: http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/
Well, it's an interpretation and reimagining of history. I've bookmarked it to read later. I'm off work for the weekend, hopefully I'll finish Heretics by Monday and we can talk about it then!
Yes. I was during rehab and I was depressed to the point of being suicidal for about two months. I remember being totally awestruck by the books. See-- I had seen the Lynch movie (which was factually inaccurate, but emotionally very close) and was very moved by it. For years I had promised myself that I was going to pick up Dune and read it. I was never a scifi reader and tended to avoid all fantasy and scifi novels, so picking up Dune only occurred out of a supreme act of boredom and depression. I was tired of being. Bored to tears and thoroughly depressed and so I begged my buddy to take me up to Waldon Books to find something to read. I grudgingly started the first book, and by page ten was totally hooked (I'd say "addicted" but that would be just to cliché). I devoured the books. Whenever I had time (and I had very little time to myself-- between family orchestrated activities and other support groups I was pretty well committed from dusk till dawn). I didn't like GEoD at first. In fact, I remember thinking "this one's the dud of the bunch." BUT GOD, how I love it now! True. His existence was serendipitous to Taraza's overall plan, but he was nonetheless integral to its coming to fruition. Had he not been there, Taraza would have selected some other breeding male to ensnare Sheeana and would have found another way to help prod the Honored Matres (if you remember, they attacked because she allowed the information to be released that he possessed their sexual abilities) I'm not referring to an actual increase of strength: you're either on the golden path, or off it, there's no in between (like being "almost" pregnant). But the culmination of the events which he set in motion (seeding the scattering with his Fish Speakers who would become Honored Matres, setting the stage for the famine times which prompted people to leave, breeding in humanity a wanderlust and a distaste for stagnation [which they learned under the Old Imperium]), did gain power and momentum and thus created the spectacle of it gaining strength. Bad wording on my part. The HM's were on Gammu for at least a century-- the descendent's from the scattering had been there at least that long. Which is a gaff on FH's part-- you cannot convince me that the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood was not able to seduce ONE male from the scattering into breeding with them and, thus, opening up those genetic memories of what exactly was "out there". Except that the Bene Gesserit learned the err of their ways and decided that working with humanity, go guide it, was the right path, and NOT to tread humans as cattle as the Honored Matres or Tleilaxu wanted. Muad'dib wasn't a mistake-- he was meticulously planned... he just arrived a generation too early. Sheeana, though, was a wild accident. But, you are right, part of Duncan's attraction to the BG was his wild talents that the GEoD was somehow aware of. But remember, the Sisterhood didn't even leave THIS up to chance-- they instructed the Tleilaxu to update his genetic makeup to make up for his eons of absence. Indeed-- the Bene Gesserit sisterhood realized that they needed to change and that they shouldn't be hunting for a captive god and that they should be the ones acting on their own accord and not through the manipulations of leaders. Actually, originally the whole story began with "God Emperor of Dune". Frank Herbert wanted a character to be his mouthpiece on his philosophies and ideas about humanity (notice how the GEoD is actually Frank Herbert addressing his audience pretty directly). Being a smart writer, Frank Herbert realized that a back story was necessary, and thus was born Dune and Paul Atreides. I've always seen the stories not as two trilogies but as three separate tales. Originally the Bene Tleilaxu were, indeed, the male counterparts to the Bene Gesserit (btw-- Bene is from the Hebrew word B'nei meaning "people of / sons of" and the Bene Gesserit name is also supposed to have been linked to the Latin phrase: "she shall have behaved well"). But as they individually evolved, they became something far more than mirror images to each other. Well, he certainly doesn't spare us any of his opinions! But, you are right, even the greatest of his heroes is essentially human at heart. And such a structure, as indicated by Herbert, was exactly the natural inclination of humanity and a great place for an organization like the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood to thrive in. In what other social structure could a female society thrive in but one where males rule, and class means everything? (In a male dominated, hierarchical society-- women can be marketed as something to be attained, and when your women are the best in all possible attributes, you naturally have a window into that control, but assume none of the blame). I actually think that the Bene Gesserit helped create that society-- they needed it to survive, but eventually recognized its destructiveness to humanity-- thus the need for a Kwisatz Haderach (which means "shortening of the way, from the Hebrew term: "Kefitzat Haderech" (Hebrew: קְפִיצַת הַדֶּרֶךְ) and means, verbatim, "jumping of the path/road/way", a Hebrew equivalent of the English expression "short cut". [sited from Wikipedia]). I agree. I tend to think that FH did intentionally demonstrate a differing view of the universe between the masculine and the feminine. Also, I call it the "Duniverse" too. I also agree. Love that page. I've been living at work for the past two weeks. It's been insane. But, alas, I've finally caught up with all this interesting banter. ~String
Interesting. I always enjoyed it, but was confused by it as well. I like it now, because I intellectually know what he was up to, and to some extent emotionally as well. Also, your not going to convince me that TEg and the sisterhoods spies would be so unaware of the changes on Gammu, and the rie of new religions. I would however buy 5 to 10 years of returnees from the scattering being back on Gammu, but with an increase in honoured matre power. It is clear from "heretics" that the honoured matres are not the only faction returning to the old empire, however by "Chapter house" they are the dominant one. Update his nervous system, yes, and probably a few other minor modifications. Where did you get that from? O'reillys book? But the interesting thing is how much that corresponded with others views of the universe, and with "reality". Certainly that is how he set his books out, and it seems he thought a similar way about the world in real life.
I think I re-read Dune several times immediately after finishing it. And, good scifi is one of my more helpful ways of dealing with emotional turmoil. H-m, I think he has some role in the overall scheme of things that transcends his use by the Tyrant and the Bene Gesserit. Perhaps it's simply that he fits so well into the pattern of how things must unfold. I'm coming from not reading Chapterhouse. But yes, the Bene Gesserit, beyond their intense emotional self-control, are still human in a way that the Tleilaxu are not. They still operate within the flow of history, instead of being copies as the Tleilaxu are. Still, I do dig the weird little bastards. Which was the mistake - Jessica acted on irrational impulses and bred a Kwisatz Hadradach that they couldn't control. A change of tactics that I'm sure their bondage under the GE taught them. I always thought of the Latin root bene, being good, the helpful sisters. But the Hebrew works well. Well, he certainly doesn't spare us any of his opinions! But, you are right, even the greatest of his heroes is essentially human at heart. This explains the God Emperor's warnings in Heretics, asking the sisterhood whether they aspired simply to power and survival as an organization. But, the feudal structure was much changed by the time of Heretics, destroyed by the golden path of energy and exploration, destroyed by the Tyrant's total ascendancy over the great houses.
A suggestion for Xev, although it might accord with grannies and eggs- Consider Satyr and his self referential philosophy/ doctrine in the light of Odrades warnings regarding systems in the beggining of "Heretics". Herbert is annoying in a couple of his later novels, and there are some continuity issues in the Dune sextet. Once you read "Chapter house Dune", I suggest "Whipping star" for a mindfuck about communication, and "The santaroga barrier" for an exploration of the individual in society.
Satyr and I go back to the days he tried to date me via private message here. His "philosophies" aren't worth the hassle of hearing about my sexual hang-ups and insecurites again. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I actually have read Chapterhouse, but it's been 10+ years and wasn't in context of Heretics. On another note, the Lynch movie or the Scifi channel miniseries? I think the former is strongly to be preferred, I just finished watching re-runs of the miniseries some months back and it's just poor. Faithful to the letter of the book and totally ignorent of its spirit. Even the "Children of Dune" movie wasn't as bad, for all its efforts to cram 2 books into one movie.
Hahahahaaa. I gathered things had been going on back then. What I mean about Satyr is that he has constructed this structure, which to be fair has some relationship to "reality", but he uses that to view the world and traps himself within it. Meanwhile, there is plenty more out there of interest, and it seems "reality" is not as simple as he (and others) would like to paint it. Children of dune movie?? All I've seen is the mini-series of Dune, and it was ok, but not great. They got some of it right to do wtih the politics and such, but messed up the Fremen and the ending, so it wasn't worth it really. Yes, I think your right about the "spirit". Ahhh, it's great actually typing to some people who have read Herbert and appreciated his work. Most people don't have a clue what it was about, and aren't interested.
Like an insect in amber. I don't particularly trust people who have a strong need to order and categorize things, it betrays a certain intellectual void - as if naming something was the same thing as understanding it. Reality emerges from a conflict of interpretations and how, in the quantum age, are we supposed to trust stasis? Tiassa and I were talking a while back about how people who seemed "bookish" (one of Satyr's favorite insults for me) often are treated as weak because we admit to multiple interpretations of facts, to uncertaintly. I do envy the strength of conviction that really dogmatic people seem to have. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0287839/ It's worth a watch, I picked it up a year or two back during a nasty bout of flu. That would be me telling people when Vonnegut died. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
