I am NOT against drugs. Don't get me wrong. But I am against the abuse of drugs. And I abused them. I have since quit ALL drugs and drinking too! This is something I wrote a few nights ago on the subject. Wondering if anyone had any thoughts.
That seems a bit subjective to the type drug. It seems to me that if you are consious you have a choice in the matter of how you deal with it. Even if you have an anxiety attack under the influence it is up to your consiouness to deal with it and return to that peacefull state. It is simply a large change in your mind/perception. So if that is the case can it not be delt with? Is the fear artificial or is it a product of your own devices? Is it possible that it is pervious damage resurfacing. Damage that has not been truely reapir and will flair up because you are letting it return. If the damage is still there have you really healed? Though I agree if you become that anxious it could very will inflict new wounds. What is the original state of mind. Can you say that your "orignal state of mind" is consious. Love, Hatred, Fear, acceptance very will can be trips of there own. Are they not alltered states of reality? Can any percepion of reality be verified with out it meaning subject to that state. If I am in a state of religious enlightemnet can you tell me form your perception that god does not exist. Because in my perception there is undenyable truth (God is sitting next to me and it is only I that can see him). It seems to me that is no different from regulare life. Though for the drug you have a set time where it will end. Life on the other hand. The question begs is the reality of the drug the genuine reality? How can you know? I once met Buddha on a mushroom trip (Seriously). There he said (among other things) " Life is just a trip and I am tripping with you". That is a sickness whethere you be on drugs are off them. It is a "sin" in both worlds. What is thinking clearly? Thinking liek you normaly do? That is strictly a judgment. A very subjective judgment. It like saying I see clearly I am the lord Jesus Christ son of God I have come here to save humanity. My word is law bow down. Where is the distinction (Except the extermity). Is being a hopped up loser your opinion or has it been brainwashed into you through society? Does that mean you are stuck, or you have choose what you reality is an are able to maintain it? Are you certian? Or are you sitting in a monestary away from all things that could jepordize your state of mind? Are you embracing existance or runing scared?
Exactly, so once you've found that peaceful state, why alter it with drugs? True, but who's to say drug ABUSE doesn't do damage as well? This is what I'm referring to. Not drug USE, but drug ABUSE. If I want to make anything of my consciousness I have to have a firm ground to build it on. Sobriety is the only sturdy form, not to mention it's alot cheaper than going to a dealer to sustain my desired state of consciousness. What it comes down to is I'm not saying sobriety on it's own is better than any form of altered consciousness... But it's the one we're stuck with, so instead of running from it, why not learn to live with it? And learn to love it. When I remember what being high was like, I now see it as poisoning my system and my mind. The human mind was not meant to be so sparatic, and it will suffer if you put it through that for extended lengths of time. If all it takes is one bad thought to set off your whole life I feel sorry for you. I can't know. So why not stick with the one most likely to be true, does not require a fee, and does not do bodily and mental damage? Besides, while I could never know for sure if my 'trips' were real, I really have no reason to think they were. I'm not that impressionable. This is a perfect example. Do you see the possibility that you can't handle real life so you need Buddha to pat you on the shoulder? Just a possibility... Agreed. But were drugs the cause or result? Either way, doesn't look too good for drugs... Thoughts independant of external chemicals. My trip never ends. I live life, the greatest high of them all. It is a judgement, but based on experience. I don't see someone who NEEDS a physical thing to sustain their state of mind anything but weak. Does not mean they are worse than me, I would do anything I could to help. But you can't help those who don't want to be helped. My best friend always tried to tell me I was turning in to a loser but it took hitting rock bottom for me to bounce back. Personally, I think the oposite of a hopped up loser would be someone who is completely self sufficient. And my beliefs do not come from programming through society. When I see anti-drug commercials I scoff at them just like you. Drug users do not kill each other, rape passed out teens, etc... Well if they do, it's independant of drugs. I'm saying drugs takes away from true beauty. Life. Sometimes drugs can help you see that beauty, but it is not the drug itself that is beautiful, so once ready to see the true beauty of life without a crutch, let it go. I am getting the impression you think I'm anti drug-use. I'm not. As I stated in the first sentance of this thread, I am only anti drug-ABUSE. I have realized there has always been but one reality. One that encompasses everything I saw in my trips. But with so much more. Every drug you have ever done; it was only emulating true life... So why emulate when you can EXPERIENCE true life? Every trip you've ever had, every drug you've ever done, all at once! I hate to sound like a hippy or something, but it's true, life is the greatest high, and the only way to trip. I'm not hiding from anything, I'm just not inducing something that can no longer do me any good. Life is going to throw me all kinds of curve balls, why throw more shit infront of me when I've already gotten the rewards out of it? I've gotten all I can from drugs, to do more would be hiding in my monestary. I stepped out of that monestary and am now taking life head on. All my fears I live with now. Drugs was hiding.
How strong is that state of mind if it cannot deal with a messed up reality where there is no up or down. If it cannot it is most likely a conditional state of mind. Just as easily it could be destroyed by events in life. Why then your peace is dependant on stable condition. Though what is normal consiousness? Is if love, anger, hatred they all are like a drug induced state themselves. Does nomal consiousness mean the ability to attain control and supress all that does not fit. Or to go past the damaged pshyce with out truely dealing with tha damage. It is usual allot easier to be open on drugs, it seems to me that many can be afraid of that openess and want to crawl back to there holes and build there bubble again. The human mind is that sparatic. It is just a pattern that is familiar. Who is Notme? Is he the pattern? That is to be complacent. That is an issue on mushrooms or in real life. If you allow one bad though to destroy your trip. Both the living high and the "drug" high are trips. Do you think your life will end if you make one mistake (like for example you make and idoit of yourself). Move on. In any case it is a trip. In most cases the only thing that is constant in respective "trips" is your consiousness. So deal with problem there, what ever trip you may be on. Well for the record Buddha didn't pat me on the sholder. He fucking set me straight and gave me a slap. That trip was seriously one of the hardest things I have ever done and I am gratefull for it. Like I said it was in no way a pat on the back. Though I cannot know for sure if it wasn't true. If there is some universal energy it would require serious openess to percieve it. Drugs tend to open one up so it seems possible but impossible. Though our experienced of the life trip differ so it is all extremely subjective. Either is is fake or real. I don't pretend to know. I guess that would give you everything you need to find internal truth.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Becarefull when you use the word true. That is a subjective beauty that resides only in you. One could equally say that assuming a constant reality is a crutch. LMAO you have realized reality:bugeye: I am not questioning that you quit drugs I am questioning the motive. Some leave the monestary because they have seen to much and they prefer to forget about it. I am not saying this is the case for you, just beware.
I never said I didn't do drugs cause I was scared it would destroy my perfect state of mind. I said there's no reason. Why would I do drugs? It's rewards are removed... Seems pointless to me now... Inner conditions, yes. As is all inner peace. Outer conditions can change all the time, but inner peace is 100% dependant on inner stability. And if drugs is the bubble? You think drugs gives you answers that you can't reach any other way. Instead of using drugs, I WORK for my answers. You think drugs can offer peace, I have peace with myself and need no external components... You state that drugs show you something you can't see any other way. I'm saying I have found a way to see it without drugs. I no longer need to use drugs to see it. I see everything you see on drugs, but I do so through mental training, not chemically induced highs... Now which one of us is living in the bubble? What else? You don't seem to be getting me. I'm not arguing wether or not I could 'survive' another trip. I could. I'm arguing, WHY WOULD I INDUCE ANOTHER TRIP!? You keep saying things like "if you can't handle drugs, then you still have problems" And I'm saying I COULD handle drugs, but see no reason... Why should I do drugs? I'm past them now. Stillness is stagnation. But if there is NO universal energy, which is so much more likely, then the drugs are not opening you up to true existance, but shutting you out.... Putting you in a fantasy world, nothing more. And once I've done that I can look for external truth with an objective mind. Because I already have everything I NEED within me, now I'm just looking for truth out of curiosity. I have no need for a specific answer. And the beauty which you see ONLY on drugs is objective? I'm saying I see the beauty I saw on drugs too, but I no longer need the drugs to see it. Can you say the same? Or are you still dependant on drugs to see new forms of beauty? No offence, but compared to someone who had a conversation with buddha... :bugeye: I have alot more reason to believe I'm living in something closer resembling reality than a universe with universal energy and a fundamental buddha waiting for anyone willing to do drugs. I've never regretted doing drugs. When I started drugs, they were what I needed to take the 'next step'. But in order to take the step after that I have to let go of the drugs. Believe it or not you can get to a stage where drugs are holding you back. And when you do, you can chose to let go of drugs, and face the unkown. Or you can run back to your monestary (drugs) cause you are too afraid to take the next step.
Agreed Agreed but I was think more about having an inner peace stemming for the origin of though.The very begining of consiousness. So even when your thoughts are emotions run wild they are tamed. I think, I think, I think.Stop the accusation seriously. It is a theoritical question there is not need to get offended. I asked a question not accused you of being deluded. Seriously Chill out. Is there anything beyond the pattern of highs? I am not telling you to do drugs. I was asking the question not making accusation. There is no need to get defensive. How can you say that we have attain reality. So all options are possible. No equally as likely but possible. Odds are meaning less. If the odds are that this will be we'll truth doesn,t much care for odds. Odds are something cast upon possibilities from the human mind. So unless you live in reality/truth then do not say what can and cannot be because that is ultimatly subjective. Say what you think but not what is untill you realize what is. I have not realized reality/truth so I cannot say fore sure what is. That is the point untill you have learned inner truth how can anyone know anything? Anything said is just a shot in the dark. On a mushroom trip, but because I do not realize internal truth. I cannot say for sure whether the experience was true or false. The fact of the matter is that I learned valuable lessons from the trip. Wheter it was Buddha or not is completly and utterly irrelivant to what I had learned. I do not claim to realize inner truth so how can I claim anything? I have never said that drugs are the eternal awnser. I have noted that some find use in them for there search and I agree there is a time to go beyond them. Seriously Notme do you mean to be vindictive?
I don't think drugs are the origin of thought... Actually I wasn't offended, you seem to be the one getting defensive. Please re-read my post and concider it, it was not an attack, it was an honest point. No. But it's a less desirable pattern as it costs money. Not to mention it CAN (but not always) make you lazy, anti-social, apathetic, etc... Again, I wasn't being defensive, I was answering the question you asked. Actually odds and probability (a.k.a. MATH) are based on previous objective events, so they seem like a pretty good method on deciding what is more likely reality... And I'm saying I think drugs poisons your inner being. Why are you so sure you need these drugs to learn these valuable lessons? No, not at all. I think you put a tone to my written voice that was not intended... I was just making points, most of which you dodged with "sheesh, calm down". I was not trying to attack you, I was making worthy points. If you could, please go over the post again and answer the points I made.
Sorry dude this does come across as a self rightious rant. One how much drugs to you honestly assume I do? Two have I ever said drugs will give you inner peace? Three How can you say you see everything I see? Unless we realize truth we are both living in a bubble, so let us not argue over whos bubble is bigger. It is odds placed on circumstance from human perspective. So I see it as very flawed. The problem that I have with odds is that they are done by humans on what we believe with our current knowledge is more likley. Objective events percieved by humans. I think that is dependant on the person. It seems completly subjective. Niether do I. I did not say you NEED drugs. All I said was it is possible. Because you are on a hallucinogenic, you know longer have the comfortable ideas of your "percieved everyday world". I addressed your points? This does not mean you need drugs to not crawl into a hole. What I mean is that some people may initialy experience that openess with drugs but are afraid of the openess and quit drugs because the see something they don't like. Themselves. Is is not to say do drugs it is just a possibility I am noting. How can you say it is a less desirable pattern. For you mabye, but that is subjective to you and we are not talking strictly about you. Your normal trip CAN make make you lazy, anti-social, apathetic, etc... That really has nothing to do with the drugs. Though I will agree certian drugs will burn out your nervous system and cause damage. But what is the origin of inner stability?
Not much. Again, we're talking about overuse of drugs as I've been stating since the beginning. Not directly, but it has been the tone of your arguments so far... Agreed. Then I guess odds at the race track are completely random? Odds have been proven to work time and time again. For example: Have you ever been to Jupiter? No. So does that mean you should believe there's a 50/50 chance of there being giant green frogs living in the atmosphere? No. Because of odds. I suppose so. But wouldn't you see it as better as to not need any substances for realization? While on drugs it is still YOU that is learning all the things. Drugs just opens you up to it. Don't you see living in that open state a better goal than always taking drugs to induce that openness? You don't need drugs to question your everyday world. I do so every second of every day. I agree that drugs has alot to offer. But once you've seen it, you can learn to see it without drugs. Agreed. But I'd say it's safe to say you and I are beyond that point. So why then did I quit drugs? It's not that I saw myself and didn't like him. It's that I saw who drugs was turning me in to and didn't like it. Keep in mind though, I abused drugs heavily. But none the less... To be 100% in touch with yourself while sober is better than needing a drug to do so. A master of the mind can induce a high without the chemicals. It's all in the mind. Granted. All I'm saying is that I agree drugs CAN do good for someone. But for each person that has had drugs do good for them, they could have done better themselves. Birth, I'd say. Why? Again, I apologize if any of this came off as preachy or offensive.
If so that was not my intention. I agree that odds are better then nothing. But they are assumptions none the less. There may be out side factors not perceived so I see them as very subjective. I agree the odds may not be in the favor green frogs but even if the odds where to be 1/100000. If the green frogs where there then the odds would have been irrelivant. All odds are is some ones best guess. Which can be wrong or right. So unless all the factors are known then it is a guess. Just beeing sure that the subjectivity of odds are noted.
I wouldn't judge it to be better or worse just different. Both sides have there limits and draw backs. It is not questioning the world that I am speaking of. It is when you are flying and the world know longer exists because you have become a floating consiousness. You know longer have any form to hold on to. Most people when they have constant for they take it for reality. Even if they question it they still take it as a constant. I am guilty of this at times. For the record I don't think it was a matter of the drugs turning you. It was you turning yourself. Ironical the drugs where innocent. You would have betrayed them by abusing them not the other way around. That is the point the drugs have no agenda they just are, the problem is how your consiousness will react to them. How will you deal with that reaction. I think a strong mind could do drugs with out abusing them or letting them destroy his inner peace. Whether he would wnat to is complelty subjective. A genuine state of peace should hold up no matter what he conditions. Hmmm birth you say. OS the moment exact moment when you became aware. Before you had been afflicted with in psyhcological damage. To obtain inner peace/Inner truth you would be required to return to that state. Beyond all emotional damage. Essential you would need to completly reapir your mind. Down to the smallest thing (Ei: Down to how you left the womb; I could see that struggle being traumatizing). Mabye you where seperated from your mother right after birth that could have lead to emotional damage as well.
If green frogs were there then odds would have been irrelevant in that ONE case... But odds are (lol) that those rare guesses (green frogs) wouldn't be right very often. Therefore it is still useful to use odds. Granted it is a guess that can be either right or wrong. But it's not 50/50 and that's the point. No point in basing your life in a 1/100000 chance. If that 1/100000 chance is the truth, it will become evident in time. No need to take unnecessary risks. Done I see drugs as much more limited and with many more draw backs, with no rewards that sobriety couldn't give you anyway. If I've missed something, point it out. But it seems drugs has no rewards that can't be achieved through sobriety. You just have to have a very opened mind, naturally. And drugs is the only way to leave this behind? 'leaving my body' is not my goal, and never has been. But if it is possible (again, odds are against you) then I'd imagine it'd still be possible without drugs. Agreed. There are many people who can live peaceully with drugs. I just don't see the point. Just because you can do them without destroying your peace of mind doesn't mean you've accomplished anything. And needing them to keep a peacefull mind is a weakness. I can understand people who do them for fun, but then don't pass it off as then having philosophical elements. Drugs only brings out the philosophy in you. I've learnt to bring the philosophy out of me myself. So I don't need drugs, and I no longer find them fun. So I have no reason to do them. I've done drugs since I quit, remember? But I didn't enjoy em and saw no reason to continue using them. If you have a strong mind you can stand to cut off your own finger. But does that mean we should all cut our fingers off? This is the point I'm trying to make. I just see no value in drugs what-so-ever. So I quit. Also agreed. But I am one of the people that no longer want to. There is no doubt that I could now stand up to drugs, so to speak. But I have no reason. And not only that, but doing drugs hurts people close to me. Like my family, and some of my friends. PLUS I don't like the lifestyle it leads to, etc... So again, personally, I really have no reason to do them. The only thing I have against drugs is people often mistake them as the source of their philosophy or creativity, when all it is is a method... One that you should learn to get past. If you want to continue doing them for fun, by all means do. But don't rely on them to bring the 'true you' out. That's addiction. In other words, our existance depends on emotional damage? Hmmmm, interesting.
Duh!!! The goal is not leaving your body it is letting go fo the constant. It removes that which you are familiar with. To me that seems like a real test for some ones state of mind. If everything goes your way how can you test your state of mind. Granted there are other ways then drugs. Like I said it is just one way. What??? No not at all. Our perception is damaged so we do not see clearly. That emotiona damage clouds our perception. The only way to attain clarity would to be able to repair the emotional damage. With out that our perception is muddied. It just means that we need to soul search to the point where we arrive at the begining of our awarness. Return to the origin. Only then can we obtain clairity.
Ah. Ok, point made. But I'm looking for other methods because the side effects of drugs aren't worth it for me. Seems we've found common ground.
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