GeoffP:"Illustrate this straw man." I was referring to the point at which you threw in Cold War issues in the context of this discussion, as if I had been espousing some sort of Communist rhetoric: GeoffP: "Where is the ad hominem in the last post?" GeoffP: "But you just said we should subvert them!" You lost me... I doubt if I have stated that we should subvert Muslims. I am all for disrupting all forms of terrorism by means of legitimate international law-enforcement. Maybe you could clarify by quoting me with a little context in this "gotcha". "Borders separate ethnic groups." Not in any normal modern society. "Is it wrong to separate yourselves from a population rife with political fanaticism" Especially so if the fanaticism is a reaction to apartheid. In such a case fanaticism is encouraged. "And the ghettoization of the immigrant Israeli community in the early 20th century" Tit for tat doesn't accomplish anything. If I do you wrong, you are not thereby justified in doing wrong to another. This is very basic ethics. "How about dhimmitude via sharia: does this also represent a form of apartheid, since it restricts the rights of non-muslims?" Yes. As I have been repeatedly suggesting, doing wrong can provoke more wrongs. But this doesn't bring us to what is right, until we break the cycle. In modern times, Zionist separatism have been the greater provocation, and one that can be most easily moderated by Israel's American protectors. US foreign policy is flailing around with all sorts of deadly experimentation, yet will not curb Israel. Put another way, There are a multitude of overlapping conflicts raging in the mideast, but the Arab-Israeli one inflames them all. There is little leverage for collectively influencing all the various Arab fundie whackos, dictatorships. and mafias, each with their own agendas. Israeli apartheid is the one common element, the abolishment of which would promote stability like nothing else. The longer Washington avoids calling this dog to heal, the more obvious it is that this is what must be done. "Look ["Fisking"] up yourself." I don't mean to wear you down. I've been trying to share with you some things I've learned about Muslims from close observation. It seems that I have had better opportunities to encounter Muslims than you. If you would talk with more Muslims and read from the links I have provided for you, I can assure you that your assumptions about a high proportion of fanaticism and fundamentalism within the Islamic world will be challenged. I don't mean to infer that you are stupid, but instead that the politicization of religion is creating common illusions. These are illusions that can be dispelled. "you previously were of the opinion that there were indeed moderates and, indeed, immoderates, who could be discerned, seemingly." And I still am of that opinion. I have not wavered from that opinion. Fisker.