DRC: UN Security Council green-lights French peacekeeping operation

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Tiassa, May 31, 2003.

?

How will this one go?

  1. We can still hope for the best

    2 vote(s)
    11.1%
  2. I'm concerned about the number: 1,000 isn't enough

    13 vote(s)
    72.2%
  3. I'm concerned about the French leading anything

    3 vote(s)
    16.7%
  4. (Other)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    37,148
    Note: I would imagine that Jerrek will enjoy this ....

    UN agrees on DR Congo force (BBC)
    This ... is going to go ... well.

    Er ....

    We can hope this goes well, but, well, I'm not sure 1,000 baby blues can make that much of a difference in a place where people seem dedicated to having a problem with each other. But it's heartbreaking what 700 peacekeepers have been unable to pull off. They're caretakers, at best, and apparently an evacuation force. The situation is clearly out of hand; so what to do? I mean, come on ... I have this feeling that things are about to "get worse before they get better". And that's really hard to imagine, you know?

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  3. aghart Registered Senior Member

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    The French should lead this, they have a lot of influence in the area. The trouble with the UN though is that it is "toothless". it's alright saying 'force can be used' but will the countries contributing troops be willing for those troops to be put 'in harms way'.

    The numbers involved are too small and we will be back to the usual situation of UN soldiers in blue helmets standing by and doing nothing while innocent civilians are butchered by their neigbours.

    A question for Tony Blair, just where are the UK soldiers going to come from?. This is one operation the UK should not be expected to get involved in.
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    See what happens when I make concessions?

    I'll buy that. In reality, I worry about the number. As to the Frankish jabs, I was just trying to make concessions to the Francophobes.

    And I really shouldn't do that.

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  7. Congrats Bartok Fiend Registered Senior Member

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    And...exactly what is the direct threat to the French mainland? What overriding right do the French (or UN) have that allows them to wage war, and that is exactly what any sort of military action is, on a part of a sovereign naion that has done nothing wrong? Of course, they will not be fighting the people, but fighting for the people, correct?

    I suppose that the argument against Iraq was either fickle and case-sensitive, and therefore totally inconsistent, or non-existant. The key factor in the legitimacy of this action seems to be the fact that everyone on the Council is thinking the same thing, and of course, the worst kind of war is one that is started without total 'harmony' and 'agreement'. Who cares about the legitimacy of the act itself, so long as everyone is in agreement about 'the public good.'
     
  8. WasiGermany Banned Banned

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    377
    anybody said that there is a threat to the "mainland" ???
    i donĀ“t think so

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    this is a "peacekeeping mission" ,not an "attack war" (like we all saw in iraq)
     
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    37,148
    Well ....

    It's interesting, Congrats. I'm one who opposes generally all forms of conflict, but even I can tell the difference between what's going on in Iraq and what's about to happen in DRC.

    If you can't, then I urge you to consider strongly whether or not you are qualified to support or oppose any military combat situaton.

    In the meantime, the "overriding right" is the United Nations Charter; the Democratic Republic of Congo is a UN member state.

    That pretty much gives the UN Security Council the right to send a peacekeeping force in the sense that DRC has signed on and these are the rules. We might consider Article 2, paragraph 7, but that seems to specifically grant license, and we might also consider that the situation in DRC is international: Rwanda and Uganda both are complicating the situation. Whether we look at the DRC crisis as a domestic or international dispute, it would appear that, by proxy of UN membership, DRC "gives" the UNSC the right to do this.

    Beyond the formal legality of it ... if every war dog in the world would simply kill the one person they individually have the right to kill, the world would be a better place.

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  10. SG-N Registered Senior Member

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    They will not fight for anyone. They will protect every civilians that would be fired (don't care about the good/bad side - as they did it in Kosovo).
    However, as you don't understand UN's aims...

    1000 peacekeepers is a little bit small!

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  11. Congrats Bartok Fiend Registered Senior Member

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    552
    I was...ranting...I suppose.

    The UN charter more than legalizes the use of force in the Congo. Tiassa, you have proven me totally wrong.

    The ethics of the situation, to me, is that any nation can attack any nation, and the question of legality should not come into play. It is a question of right. The decision to justify or not takes place in one's conscience.
     
  12. SG-N Registered Senior Member

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    1,051
    The ethics of the situation, to me, is that any person can attack any person, and the question of legality should not come into play. It is a question of right. The decision to justify or not takes place in one's conscience. (of course "attack" = "murder")
    :bugeye:
     
  13. Congrats Bartok Fiend Registered Senior Member

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    552
    Of course, both a nation and a person have the right at any action, and thus assume all responsibilty and consequence.

    A person may be tried for murder. A nation cannot be tried for war. A nation may be tried for war crimes, yet in this case, none have been found (that I know) and I don't believe any charges are ensuing that mean anything.

    A nation is an assemblage of individual persons and in a democracy, they dicate the actions of the state through their own personal volition. Therefore, if, as in the Iraq war, 60% of Americans approve, even though no official count is needed, that action is entirely morally justified, no matter what.

    I know this is a bit off topic, but this justifies the Congo operation. I suppose the French want to lead because of assumed cultural responsibilities?
     
  14. SG-N Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,051
    Is there someone that understand irony...?

    "You may say I'm a dreamer..." (John Lennon) - Oops, sorry, there's a small difference : he was for peace!

    Responsabilities in an ethnic war? Congo has been independant since 1960... France does't have to be responsible for the actual problem! Or maybe a little bit (I don't know what my government did with Congo after 1960 (economical relations, ...)). Anyway that's a past colony and there's a problem so we need to help them.
     
  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    37,148
    Here we go!

    French troops arrive in DR Congo (BBC)
    - BBC Video: Andrew Harding - "Cheers of relief from a traumatised population" (Real)
    - Is the UN doing enough to stop wars in Africa? (BBC)
    - In pictures: Troops arriving in Congo (BBC)

    Something not the BBC ....

    - Congo war may pit UN troops vs. child soldiers (Philadelphia Inquirer)
    What in the world can I possibly say? Fourteen-hundred, the number now is?

    (1) This is going to be ugly.
    (2) Fifty to sixty thousand killed by the fighting, upwards of three million dead to poverty and disease? Fourteen hundred is not enough.
    (3) Can the world come up with some ideas, like now: What can we offer the fighters over the long run that would convince them that there is something better to hope for than war?
    (4) At what point will "We need more troops" become more expensive than simply dropping food, medicine, and money all over the country from airlplanes? Shoot cruise missiles full of chickens, for heaven's sake: roast on impact.

    Just ... just ... read. Please.
    Do mine eyes deceive me or does that say mostly child soldiers?

    I ... I ... I ...

    These troops, upon ending their tours of duty, may never sleep again. This is going to be so hideously ugly that I demand that every skirmish and battle be broadcast live on CNN, FOX News, MSNBC, and the major American networks. I've heard talk that there's a "War" network coming to satellite or cable somewhere in the world that's just going to broadcast current-conflict footage 24/7. Good. Let's get this show up in front of the public. It's going to be stomach-turning. Absolutely horrifying.

    In the meantime, as I write this, the new story appears via Reuters UK that the militias have gone at it again, so I guess the peacekeepers get an early show.

    A very interesting editorial has popped up in the Hindustan Times:
    I don't know what to think of this Gulf News article, essentially an advert for private security firms in peacekeeping operations. I'm not sure, but I think the article is prescribing mercenaries:
    You know, I can understand a certain amount of private-contract logistical support, but Rent-a-Gurkha?

    And how about a last, desperate editorial:Is the Congo facing a second betrayal? (AllAfrica)

    Forgive me if I don't hop the next plain to DRC to report on the ground situation. But if it's spectacular morbidity that people want, the newshounds ought to be flocking to DRC--All Death, All the Time ....

    This is going to be so ugly .....

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  16. SG-N Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Here we go!

    That's right... Children are alone as their parents have been killed so the "soldiers" teached them how to use weapons and kill their "ennemy". F***ing world!
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    37,148
    Dubious hope

    DR Congo foes promise unity (BBC)
    This is, unfortunately, one of those occasions when the story makes for a nice headline, but honors a different reality. To the one, I have my doubts that the parties can resolve enough differences to go forward at the beginning of next month; furthermore, that transitional body is to rule for only two months, making for two transitions of power in sixty days. Will the warlords play ball, or will one of them seize a potential opportunity? After all, and not to harp on a point, these guys are sending children to the front. That's pretty cold. And a BBC correspondent implies that, even with the warlords playing ball, the armed, drugged, otherwise-unemployed youths may be another issue entirely.

    It's encouraging to hear that the players involved want to find a way out, but I'm as sure as I can be that the present developments will fall through due to human factors.

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Macabre ... absolutely ... macabre

    Boy soldiers toting AK-47s put at front of Congo war (Washington Post)
    I am so serious: I want this one on television. I want the whole world to watch this one. The harrowing of Baghdad was almost pretty on the screen. There would be no illusion strong enough to hide people's horror if the DRC operation was broadcast on television.

    The UN beating children? Gunning them down? Imagine the ratings!

    Just reading about it trips me out. This is beyond morbid.

    And I can hear the refrain, from somewhere in the midwest: You see what happens, Billy, when you don't listen to your father?

    Show the world. O! Brave eyes, turn not from this shadow of the valley of death!

    :m:,
    Tiassa

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  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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  20. kazakhan Registered Abuser Registered Senior Member

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    915
    Old enough to kill, old enough to die!
    If someone is pointing a gun at me with the intention to kill, then if possible I'd take them out 1st, who freakin cares how old they are. Is there nobilty in being gunned down by an eight year old?
    Shouldn't you be more horrified that some of the parents of these children encourage this? Is that not a reason for the peace-keeping force, to stop this sort of shit?
     
  21. WasiGermany Banned Banned

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    377
    you ask seriously "who freakin cares how old they are" ???
    perhaps the soldiers that killed one of these child-soldiers, bastard !
    blue-helmets should go in there and take all the people there the guns away !!!
    this would be the right first step
     
  22. kazakhan Registered Abuser Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    915
    They may worry about it afterwards, but if they contemplate it while in the situation they'll likely be shot themselves.
    Have you ever had a gun pointed at your head, it's not f**kin nice

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    when someone puts your life in their hands!
    Some of these "child-soldiers" don't want to be disarmed.
     
  23. EI_Sparks Registered Senior Member

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    1,716
    And don't forget that this isn't the same as the case in Iraq where an unarmed 10-year-old was deliberately shot dead by a US marine without challange, these kids have killed, they are psychologically damaged, and while a humanitarian solution is possible after the violence ends, there pretty much isn't one at present, shy of tear gassing the entire populus and then arresting them all. And even that would cause casualties.

    As perhaps shown today :
    BUNIA, Congo (Reuters) - French troops sent to stop tribal fighting in the Congolese town of Bunia opened fire for the first time and made a show of force after encountering gunfire on Saturday, witnesses said.
    Attackers hidden in long grass fired machineguns as a French patrol rolled beyond the outskirts of the town, focus of clashes between rival ethnic militias that have killed hundreds in the past month.
     

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