Dr Williams wants some aspects of Sharia law with in the UK legal system.

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by alexb123, Feb 7, 2008.

  1. alexb123 The Amish web page is fast! Valued Senior Member

    Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'

    Dr Rowan Williams

    Dr Williams says Muslims should have a choice in legal disputes
    The Archbishop of Canterbury says the adoption of Islamic Sharia law in the UK seems "unavoidable".

    Dr Rowan Williams told Radio 4's World at One that the UK has to "face up to the fact" that some of its citizens do not relate to the British legal system.

    Dr Williams argues that adopting some aspects of Sharia law would help maintain social cohesion.

    For example, Muslims could choose to have marital disputes or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia court.

    He says Muslims should not have to choose between "the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty".

    An approach to law which simply said - there's one law for everybody - I think that's a bit of a danger
    Dr Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury

    In an exclusive interview with BBC correspondent Christopher Landau, ahead of a lecture to lawyers in London later on Monday, Dr Williams argues this relies on Sharia law being better understood. At the moment, he says "sensational reporting of opinion polls" clouds the issue.

    He stresses that "nobody in their right mind would want to see in this country the kind of inhumanity that's sometimes been associated with the practice of the law in some Islamic states; states; the extreme punishments, the attitudes to women as well".

    But Dr Williams says the argument that "there's one law for everybody... I think that's a bit of a danger".

    "There's a place for finding what would be a constructive accommodation with some aspects of Muslim law, as we already do with some other aspects of religious law."

    Dr Williams adds: "What we don't want either, is I think, a stand-off, where the law squares up to people's religious consciences."

    "We don't either want a situation where, because there's no way of legally monitoring what communities do... people do what they like in private in such a way that that becomes another way of intensifying oppression inside a community."

    Multiculturalism 'divisive'

    His comments are likely to fuel the debate over multiculturalism in the UK.

    Last month, one of Dr William's colleagues, the Bishop of Rochester, said that non-Muslims may find it hard to live or work in some areas of the UK.

    The Right Reverend Dr Michael Nazir-Ali said there was "hostility" in some areas and described the government's multicultural policies as divisive.

    He said there had been a worldwide resurgence of Islamic extremism, leading to young people growing up alienated from the country they lived in.

    He has since received death threats and has been placed under police protection.


    I cannot believe this shit, this man is not even pushing his own religion on this issue. The UK is secular!!!!! And we should be moving to heighten this not weaken it.

    If aspects of Sharia Law have value then by all means look at incorporating it as a 'normal' law. But to have a Sharia court or any law what-so-ever that is formulated on any religious belief what-so-ever, is fucked up!
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  3. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

    What happens when one party involved in a dispute wants the matter settled by a standard UK court and the other by a Sharia court?

    And can we set up our own religion with our own legal system?
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  5. alexb123 The Amish web page is fast! Valued Senior Member

    I think that to qualify to use the Sharia court you have to have at least basic plans to blow up an underground station.
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  7. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

    Is this the new "Peace in our time"?
  8. nova900 more spirituality,less dogma Registered Senior Member

    I suppose they can flip a coin.

    From what I know of sharia law there is no place for it in a moral society despite the claim that people who criticise it are just acting on bad publicity it receives in the media without understanding it.
    There was an attempt to make it law here in Ontario but the public outcry from womens groups and others squashed it...for now.
  9. Myles Registered Senior Member

    Rowan Williams constantly talks through his arse. It's impossible to find out what he believes.

    I'm against any form of sharia in the UK. From divorce, it's only a hop, step and a leap to lashing and stoning. Am I exaggerating ? I don't think so. The argument will be that's it's Muslims stoning Muslims and that somehow makes it ok. Freedom of belief and so on.

    For those who favour sharia, there are plenty of places they can move to which will gives them what they want. As long as they choose to remain here they must learn to fit in.

    As to the UK being a secular society. Rowan Williams is addressing 2% of the population, most of whom are elderly. They are not being replaced as they die.
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    All Muslims follow sharia law in some form or other. Of course, since most people are unaware what sharia law is they don't have a clue when Muslims are following it.

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  11. Myles Registered Senior Member

    I agree with your assessment. Sharia is barbaric by our standards, I have spent some time in Saudi and seen it in action. You can see the religious police patrolling the streets, carrying long sticks to hit women who are not properly dressed accrding to the law.

    A friend of mine was dragged from a car and manhandled when he stopped at traffic lights in Riyadh. His offence ? Smoking during Ramadan.

    Now I know a lot of Muslims will try to explain that Saudi is extreme in it's interpretation of sharia. But there is nothing in sharia which cannot be found in the Quran. Don't let them tell you otherwise. Given half a chance, they would drag us back into the Middle Ages which is their current state of development.
  12. Myles Registered Senior Member

    I bought a book on sharia during a stay in Saudi. All the barbaric acts such as stoning and lashing, wife-beating and so on are mentioned in there. So, don't tell me I'm unaware of sharia.

    Are you denying that the testimony of two women is required to counter that of one man ? The reason ? Women are prone to gossip. which makes their testimony less credible than that of a man. How about the rules regarding divorce ? Need I go on ?
  13. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

    Is this before or after they've changed their minds for the umpteenth time?
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    I'm glad you studied it in the right place. What better place than a bookstore to get legal and/or religious knowledge? Especially in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, that bastion of free information? :shrug:
  15. alexb123 The Amish web page is fast! Valued Senior Member

    I think the danger in this is that some muslims believe the UK and every other country should be a muslim state and this would be a step in that direction.

    In the currently climate I think this is one of the most stupid comments I have ever heard. I strongly believe this man should be sacked!!
  16. Myles Registered Senior Member

    I anticipated your reply, so it came as no surprise to find you in denial.

    First, I did not get knowledge in a bookstore alone, whatever you may think. I discussed it with some Palestinians who agree that it represented the teachings of Islam. I also declined invitations to a flogging and a beheading neare the Friday Mosque. So you assume too much. I notice you have not denied anything I have said. I take it that you get no knowledge from books, particularly those sold in a bookstore.

    You are playing the usual cards. When someone objects to barbarities carried out in the name of Islaam, they are citing a special case. So, you regard Saudi as a bastion of free information and , on these grounds alone, you attempt to refute what I have said. Well, it won't wash.

    I imagine Iran is not a true Muslim nation either. As I write , there are seven people awaiting execution for adultery. The method of stoning is carefully prescribed. A stone must be big enough to cause injury but not so big as to cause death. Eyewitness accounts have it that the execution takes about two hours. But, of course, that is not true Islaam, you will say.

    I'm not too familiar with what goes on in Pakistan, but it appears to be much of a muchness with other Islamic states.

    Such atrocities do not happen in Palestine, for reasons which are obvious.

    Next look at what your religion of peace has been up to in Africa. But they, of course, are not true Muslims.

    The bottom line is that it is impossible to find a "true Muslim" anywhere.
  17. Myles Registered Senior Member

    Don't sack him. Convert him to Islam and send him to an Islamic state where he can be declared an apostate. that will see the back of him.

    Sam will probably deny it, but the punishment for apostacy is death. It is written.
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    So what is sharia?
  19. Myles Registered Senior Member

    No, that won't work. You tell me why what I have said is wrong and indicate where I can find the information that supports your view. Don't play games. I have made some unequivocal statements about sharia, so the ball is in your ( sharia ) court if you disagree.
  20. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

    It is just another version of the No True Scotsman fallacy, just as with Sandy and her contention that "born again" Christians do not commit acts of terrorism.

  21. alexb123 The Amish web page is fast! Valued Senior Member

    SAM why are you bothered about someone having to stated what Sharia law is? As with anything of a religious nature it is highly subjective and therefore dangerous. Surely, that is all a rational person with respect for science needs to know?
  22. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

    There is no way that the UK will introduce a 2 tier law system; the idea is just too ludicrous.
  23. nova900 more spirituality,less dogma Registered Senior Member

    From an article publised by Guardian UK (dated 2002)


    What is sharia?
    The word sharia means "the path to a watering hole". It denotes an Islamic way of life that is more than a system of criminal justice. Sharia is a religious code for living, in the same way that the Bible offers a moral system for Christians.

    It is adopted by most Muslims to a greater or lesser degree as a matter of personal conscience, but it can also be formally instituted as law by certain states and enforced by the courts. Many Islamic countries have adopted elements of sharia law, governing areas such as inheritance, banking and contract law.

    What does sharia decree?

    Sharia offers a code for living governing all elements of life, from prayers to fasting to donations to the poor. It decrees that men and women should dress modestly, which in some countries is interpreted as women taking the veil and the sexes being segregated.

    "Sharia governs the lives of people in ways which are not governed by the law," says Lynn Welchman, director of the Centre for Islamic and Middle Eastern Law. "Over 50 countries are members of the Organisation of Islamic Conference, and you can expect there will be some form of compliance with sharia - either in people's personal lives or enforced through the courts by the state. A lot of states in the Middle East are taking more elements of sharia into their state laws."

    What are Hadd offences?

    Within sharia law, there is a specific set of offences known as the Hadd offences. These are crimes punished by specific penalties, such as stoning, lashes or the severing of a hand. The penalties for Hadd offences are not universally adopted as law in Islamic countries.

    Some countries, such as Saudi Arabia, claim to live under pure sharia law and enforce the penalties for Hadd offences. In others, such as Pakistan, the penalties have not been enforced. The majority of Middle Eastern countries, including Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria, have not adopted Hadd offences as part of their state laws.

    Hadd offences carry specific penalties, set by the Koran and by the prophet Mohammed. These include unlawful sexual intercourse (outside marriage); false accusation of unlawful intercourse; the drinking of alcohol; theft; and highway robbery. Sexual offences carry a penalty of stoning to death or flogging while theft is punished with cutting off a hand.

    "This is a system of criminal law which has become a potent symbol of Islamisicing the law," says Dr Welchman. "But there is the question of whether it's actually applied in the countries which have adopted it. There is supposed to be a very high burden of proof, but that clearly often doesn't happen in practice."

    Many Islamic countries will have adultery and the drinking of alcohol defined as criminal offences in law, but they are not defined as Hadd offences because they do not carry the Hadd penalty. They are often punishable by a prison term instead.


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