Dr Watson's views on race seem very sensible.

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Lord Hillyer, Oct 21, 2007.

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  1. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    S.A.M:
    How does one alter genetic polymorphisms via nutritional modification?

    False. Gender and ethnicity are often two confounders used to explain a number of variables.
     
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    One doesn't alter genetic polymorphisms

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    But there is genetic drift in haptotypes and linkage disequilibrium and they are under selection pressure to natural modifiers, including diet, such that certain environments lead to the transmission of certain allelic groups by natural selection. This also has the tendency for themselves to be differentially regulated (either by suppression or enhancement) in the presence of environments where they are not yet "adjusted".

    There has been so much mixing of populations that to assume the homogeneous distribution of any one particular trait is to miss the point completely.

    Gender and ethnicity do not, by themselves act as confounders, as in all population variables, they MAY be one of the confounders, however, the fact that they also tend to share greater variability within group than between groups is in itself a confounder.
     
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  5. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    S.A.M:
    That's what I thought, which is why I asked you to clarify.

    Since when did homogenous distribution come into this? We're talking about generalisations.
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Generalisations assume homogeneous distribution of traits within what is colloquially called as race. The fact that phenotype does not represent genotype is a fact that often escapes those who believe that every genetic trait has equal opportunity expression.

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  8. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    S.A.M:
    Again, you're engaging in a fat strawman.
     
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Sometimes they go with the black skin, sometimes they don't. The skin color essentially defines the race.

    And besides, those are all just sociologically emphasized features of appearance. They do not reflect an underlying genetic uniformity in themselves, even, let alone signify underlying genetic commonalities of other kinds.

    There is no single set of alleles underlying thick lips, kinky hair, wide noses, or any of the rest of that. There are dozens of alleles involved for each one of those features, different black (and white) people having different ones, and they do not come in a set with each other even - let alone other, unrelated genes.
     
  10. Thoreau Valued Senior Member

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    In regards to #1:
    Possible, but I do not have the evidence to decide one way or another.

    In regards to #2:
    A totally irresponsible claim

    In regards to #3:
    Well, looking at it from a biological and procreational point of view, seems completely understandable. However, from a moral point of view, completely insane. It depends one where he is coming from, whether it is based in science or personal vendictions.
     
  11. DeepThought Banned Banned

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    Nonscientific rebuttal of scientific concepts


    Obfuscating drivel.

    This whole debate has been sidetracked into one about genetics and whether race actually exists by liberal political interests.

    Watson's original remarks concerned intelligence testing which has demonstrated over several centuries that sub-Saharan Africans possess the lowest intelligence of all races.

    This has to do with brain size and structure.

    Next time your out observe the different head shapes and sizes of different races around you. The easiest to spot are the Orientals who heads are much larger than their bodies relative to whites and blacks... do the same for whites and blacks and see what you come up with it.

    Unscientific rebuttal

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  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Last edited: Oct 25, 2007
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So we are to assume that as you get closer to the equator, Hispanics become more romantic, while Hispanics who immigrate to colder countries have no interest in sex?

    Unless of course, we are saying that this applies to everyone? Or not?

    Kay

    It means he considers homosexuality a physical aberration, and as a molecular biologist who should be familiar with the concept of the role of diversity in evolutionary fitness, that is a highly irresponsible statement.
     
  14. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    S.A.M:
    Again with the strawmen.

    When are you going to stop misrepresenting the people you disagree with, S.A.M?

    But just for fun, since you work with genetic polymorphisms. Are allele frequencies for genes and SNPs constant throughout all of the ethnic groups?
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2007
  15. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    If it's not genetic, how are the other features of blacks passed from one generation to the next? Like the flat, wide nostrils? The heavy brow ridge? The thick, flabby lips? How are these appearance traits passed if it's not genetic?

    And if it is genetic, then why can't a similar gene(s) pass on the intelligence traits? Just because they haven't found those genes yet is no sign that they don't exist, is it?

    Baron Max
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Are racial classifications of traits classified by allelic distribution?

    To answer your question, the allelic frequencies are not constant throughout people. How are these people classified by race?

    What is the test used to determine the race of an individual for the purpose of such research?
     
  17. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    Not directly. But those who are black share recent ancestors from particular populations in Africa, and hence are more likely to possess certain alleles which distinguish them from Caucasian or Asian populations.

    That's right. Certain allelic variants are more frequent amongst those of East Asian ancestry, while others are more frequent amongst those of Caucasian ancestry. Fancy that.

    Ancestry. And this is often reflected by physical features. If you've got black skin with thick lips, you're most likely to have recent ancestors from Africa. If you're yellow with slanted eyes, then you're most likely to have recent ancestors from somewhere in Asia. If you're as pale as a ghost with the eyes of a Mongol, you're ancestors were most likely from somewhere in Europe.

    Ask these guys: http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/12/12/1846
     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    And all of this information is based on self selected or researcher bias of what is race.

    If I were to compare all blacks in the US with all blacks in Kenya, with all blacks in Sudan, with all blacks in Europe, will you see identical distributions?
     
  19. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    S.A.M:
    Perhaps you should send your criticism to the HapMap Consortium? No doubt they would be happy to hear your debunking of their methodology.
     
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I have already discussed this with Dr Collins. He agrees with me.

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  21. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    When/where did you meet Dr. Collins?!

    By the way:

    http://www.usmedicine.com/dailyNews.cfm?dailyID=280
    I'm surprised that Dr. Collins agrees with you regarding the flawed methodology of the HapMap project. I guess they should have just simplified the project by analysing SNPs in only whites, since variation within whites would be the same as within blacks, or between whites and blacks.

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  22. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Anyone who is interested in how and why racial classifications are used in research can access this article:

    in summary:
    http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/amp6019.pdf

    And:

    http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/amp60146.pdf

    http://www.genome.gov/10506216
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I attended his talk on the HapMap project and met him after for discussion
    If you cannot understand basic science and statistics, it is pointless for me to go on about it.
     
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