Dr Watson's views on race seem very sensible.

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Lord Hillyer, Oct 21, 2007.

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  1. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    No, it won't come to me, Sam. You know that I'm much too ignorant to understand anything more complicated than, say, 2+2=4. If that's still true anymore. Hell, maybe the liberals have even forced a change in our thinking about that, for god's sake.

    So kinky, black hair is a variation in blacks of the world? And some white groups have kinky black hair like the blacks?

    Baron Max
     
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  3. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    Nor should it be when studying any group.
    Group stats are about averages...not singular individuals.
     
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    Imagine if you will, two groups of people. Group 1 consists of individuals who have had access to better education, healthcare and diet. Group 2 consists of individuals who have inferior access to education, healthcare and diet. Now imagine if intelligence tests were conducted, pitting group 1 against group 2. Which do you think would fare better Baron?

    Tests conducted in the "50's and 60's" were virtually conducted with group 2 being tested against group 1. Do you not see how that is flawed?
     
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  7. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Depends on the tests, don't it? IQ tests are not about what one has memorized in schools or such info, but about basics of intelligence.

    All kinds of different tests, Bells, over decades of educational and intelligence research. Why is it that you think you know more than those scientists? Oh, wait, I know .....you're biased, so you believe only what you want to believe, and disregard anything that says otherwise.

    You believe that blacks are different to whites in facial and body features, right? So why can't you believe that there could be difference in brain features, too?

    Baron Max
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Its called ANOVA; its a standard test in any group measure and between group and within group variance is definitely important.
     
  9. madanthonywayne Morning in America Staff Member

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    Suppose there was a test for the "gay gene", or a test for whatever hormone imbalance or whatever causes homosexuality. Now further suppose that the doctor could go in and correct the problem. Would you consider that immoral?
     
  10. DeepThought Banned Banned

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    Exactly whose education, health care and diet are we talking about?

    A Western (white) one of course!

    Giving black (African) people a Western cultural upbringing and then testing them on IQ tests is not what this is about unless your determined to force the whole of Africa into a Western lifestyle which just isn't going to happen - Europeans already tried that.

    Humans create culture and that culture is in many ways a unique reflection of their own psyche, physiology and history. Go to Europe, you will not find the museums and art galleries filled with African people - why should they be?
     
  11. Exhumed Self ******. Registered Senior Member

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    Who said anything about culture? It's quite possible to get educated without being part of white/western culture.

    Question to anyone: does it seem like there are a lot of racists from the UK? I'm only asking, not accusing. In my personal experience (which I know is not proof of anything) I've come across enough people that hate blacks from the UK to start to wonder... In fact all of my friends from the UK who I thought were very reasonable people. I think I've seen four people from the UK on this forum endorse it.
     
  12. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    Not when youre comparing group averages...at least in this case.
     
  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Since no scientific, genetically based definition of a human "race" exists, it's difficult to imagine how any scientific research can have established the inferior intelligence of one of them.

    As far as intelligence tests and what not - there's quite a bit of evidence for social and political effects on them, large ones.

    Examples:

    In Japan the Ainu people test as stupider than the regular Japanese, especially in math and the like. In the US they are Japanese, and are just as intelligent and able on the tests as other Japanese.

    In the US, a test administrator can significatnly boost the IQ test scores of black men by convincing them that the test being given is not an intelligence test, and not being used to evaluate them. The boost doesn't happen with white men so convinced.

    Some purely physical measures of "intelligence" have been invented. One of the best is a simple machine that makes a click noise in one ear and measures the delay before the other half of the brain - the half not directly connected to that ear - responds. It correlates almost perfectly with IQ scores among upper middle class Western white males. It correlates less and less well with IQ scores the further one gets, demographically, from that group.

    And so forth.

    What problem?
     
  14. madanthonywayne Morning in America Staff Member

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    So predictable. So you'd say, no.

    Yes, homosexuality is no problem at all. Homosexuals face no extra burdens in life.
     
  15. DeepThought Banned Banned

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    There is no scientific, genetically based definition of 'art'.

    Does it really exist? Maybe it's just an illusion created by politicians and sociologists? Art seems to be something practiced almost exclusively by the middle classes. As you move demographically away from this group there is less art implying that education, health care and diet exert an undue effect on its existence.

    Isn't it just 'made up stuff'?

    As far as this debate goes the biggest social and political effects appear in terms of peoples reactions to the subject matter.

    In my experience many people are frightened of IQ tests because they expose the physical limitations of our reasoning capacity. Frequently people will do anything they can to lie or falsify their results in order to save face and make themselves appear more intelligent than they actually are. Online IQ test are designed to flatter us. Does anyone like to be told that their reasoning capacity is the same as the average Joes, or, God forbid, retarded?

    If you can't accept IQ tests as a standardized measure of logical reasoning you might as well believe in the Holy Trinity.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2007
  16. CharonZ Registered Senior Member

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    I think all good jobs should be given to Asians. They generally yield the best scores. End of discussion

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  17. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    And yet "race" is something that's discussed every day in all parts of the world. Everyone knows that "races" exist, even tho' science refuses to make a labelled classification. Big deal.

    So if it's "difficult to imagine", scientists shouldn't be allowed to research it?

    So if it's a touchy subject, we shouldn't bother investigating it? Anything that some people don't like, we should cower from it in fear of ...what... violent retribution?

    So what does that mean ....that blacks are more susceptible to brainwashing and lies than white men?

    The different "races" of humans are obviously different. How different? Or don't we want to know? Some disease strike blacks more than whites, but we shouldn't test blacks for those diseases unless we test an equal number of whites at the same time?

    Baron Max
     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    If the standard deviations of adjusted means cross each other, are the differences statistically significant?
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Trying to draw genetic conclusions from research into sociologically defined (and vaguely defined) groups is probably foolish. If it is done in obliviousness to the sociological context, it is almost certainly foolish - you would have to be very lucky to hit on a genetic influence in such a situation.
    No. The white men are jsut as easy to convince that the test is not an IQ test. But their scores do not rise in consequence.

    It means that the sociological effects on the sociologically defined "black" men's IQ scores are larger than any genetic effects - in fact, no genetic effects of sociological "race" on IQ have ever been demonstrated.
    Of course. But the different races are sociologically defined, not genetically established. So the first presumption in encountering any differences between them not visibly inherited would be that those differences are sociologically caused, not genetically established. Strong evidence of genetic linkage would be necessary, to overcome the obvious and likely.
     
  20. peta9 Registered Senior Member

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    The middle class frequent art galleries, five star restaurants, and attend symphonies?

    I don't think so. I mean humans could just chew on cud too but that would be bland.
     
  21. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    So you admit that there's a difference in the mind between whites and blacks? But you don't want to research that to find out what it is? Or why it is? You'd rather just assume ...that all races are equal? ...like a religious belief?

    But how do you know that if we don't allow testing to continue? See? You're just parroting the liberal doo-gooder party line without actually knowing the truth.

    You say it's never been demonstrated, and that might be true. But now, with the attitudes of not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings, we'll never know. So we just keep parroting the old equality party line!

    Hmm, wait a minute! Are you saying that a geneticist couldn't look at the DNA samples of "unknown" men and they couldn't tell if they were white men or black men??? Are you sure of that???

    I think that there's a genetic difference in the DNA samples. And if that's true, then perhaps there are genes or whatever that cause differences ...and one of those might be intelligence ...just like one is kinky, black hair; one is thick, fat lips; one is broad, flat nostrils, etc.

    But we'll never know anything unless we have open minds and a willingness to explore the conditions and possiblities.

    Baron Max
     
  22. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    I read recently that there is actually no known way to predict the colour of a person's hair, eyes or skin tone just from analysing his or her DNA.
     
  23. 2inquisitive The Devil is in the details Registered Senior Member

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    I don't know about hair or eye color, but new forensic techniques claim considerable racial makeup can be determined by DNA analysis:
    http://www.bioforensics.com/conference07/Racial_Identification/index.html
     
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