Does time exist?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Asexperia, Sep 28, 2015.

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  1. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    LEVELS TO MANAGE TIME

    1- Practical, everyday used. The time and date.

    2- Physical-mathematical. t = d / v.

    3- Philosophical, Philochrony. The becoming-duration. The relation MR-P (moment of reference-present).

    Becoming is the constinuous change of presents. Present changes to the past second to second.

    Asexperia
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    The present changes to the past @ quantum level. Our thoughts are our present, but the information being processed is already in the past. *Becoming precedes observation*
     
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  5. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    Isaac Newton said: "time is like a kind of invisible river."

    What it Newton would liked to say was that time is imperceptible.

    The Philochrony allows us to visualize time.
     
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  7. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    I agree very strongly with that one.

    I'm inclined to agree with that, but less emphatically. That's because I'm not sure how to best understand 'change'. (This is a good illustration of how philosophy is inextricably mixed up with science.)

    Why do we call differences between point A and point B in the time dimension change, while similar differences in the spatial dimensions are seemingly something else? Calling those spatial differences 'simultaneous' seems to beg the question. (Einstein's relativity of simultaneity and the idea of space-time may or may not address that, even if they don't entirely answer it.)

    I think that time can be subjective but that doesn't mean that it's an illusion. We certainly experience the passage of time (very imperfectly, when we are awake) but that doesn't mean that our experience must be false, an experience of something with no objective reality.

    That may or may not be true. Human beings certainly seem to have evolved in conditions of time and small children seem to understand it intuitively.

    I don't know what that means.

    Maybe.

    Edit: Oops. I didn't realize that this thread is a year old and has 14 pages that I haven't read.
     
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  8. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    Yazata said: "I do not know what that means".

    I do not know if you have continued reading this thread.

    In Philochrony time consits in the becoming-duration duality.
     
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  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    You may want to read up on Bohm's Pilot-Wave
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie–Bohm_theory

    IMO, it describes the time-line of the entire Universe from the BB to the present.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2016
  10. river

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    But does the equation give thought to the essence of time its self .
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I don't believe Time has a fundamental property in and of itself, but is just a form of mathematical measurement of *duration*.
    One might ask what the essence of duration is.
    But what length is one unit of duration? I posited before that time itself has no duration, nor is it causal to change, but is a purely arbitrary measurement of a by-product and completely dependent on the duration of a dynamical action.

    Thus, the unfolding of the Universe itself from the *beginning* creates a duration of existence, which WE have named Time .
    It is as arbitrary as asking what is the essence of say, a mile?

    The term *light-year*, which is used to indicate a distance, has two arbitrary elements. Light (c), is measured as a constant speed, @ 186,000 miles per second, but a "mile* is an arbitrary measurement. But what is the essence of *distance*?

    Similarly, a Year (or a second) is an arbitrary measurement, based on the duration of the earth's rotation and duration of the earth's orbit around the sun. These are all arbitrary subjective measurements, based on our experience of local dynamical phenomena.

    Is this not why Science always qualifies its mathematics as "descriptive approximations" ? In reality dynamical change happens by a mathematical function, but our "weights and measures" are purely human inventions which subjectively describe how we humans experience reality.












     
  12. TheFrogger Banned Valued Senior Member

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    Even if we could reverse time, do you think we would still be moving with time??

    Speed=distance/time

    time=speed/distance
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Well, you can reverse the maths of the equation, but you cannot reverse the chronology and direction of time, which is always additive and moving *forward" along with the chronology of events. It would take the *undoing* of the past events to undo the associated time and go back in time.

    Example: I drive 10 miles to a point, then put the car in reverse and go backward to my starting point. In either direction the associated travel time is added and going forward, regardless of the direction of travel by the car.

    It is one of my arguments against the concept of an independent existence of time (a costant) except as a history of the duration of past events, occurring in a permittive condition.

    IMO, time does not (needs not) yet exist in the future. The duration of future events will be created, along with their associated timelines, but there seems to be a timeless permittive condition which allows for 3 dimensional actions, which at the same time creates measurable duration, which is then recorded as the duration of time.

    That's why IMO, the correct identification of the properties of spacetime should always be written as 3 spatial, plus an emerging temporal dimension which is wholly dependent on the dynamical events within that greater timeless, but permittive condition.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2016
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  14. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    The flow of time appears to be relate to the flow of universal entropy; second law. The entropy of the universe increases with time. While increases in entropy, will cause changes of state, which we perceive as time progressing to the future; hour glass. Both time and universal entropy move in one direction. Time travel is limited by our machines not being perpetual motion machines. They will always cause entropy to increase, thereby altering the past and future; entropy differences we add.

    Energy is not a good model for time, since energy is conserved and is easily reversible back to previous states. Time is not conserved and time is not easily reversible due to the second law. A hydrogen atom can lower potential and give off a quanta of energy. We can add this same quanta to the hydrogen atom, and it will return to where it started. This is not how time works. Time goes only in one direction.

    Ironically, we measure time using reversible processes; atomic clocks. We use a reversible energy processes to measure time, even though time does not reverse like a clock. Time does not repeat itself each day; sun rise. Tomorrow is never the same as today. However, clocks have twelve noon and twelve midnight each day. Our clocks are based on an energy parallel to time, and not the more realistic entropy model for time.

    Much of the confusion about time appears to be connected to using tools; clocks, to measure time, that do not reflect the unidirectional nature of time; time does not repeat. When we measure time dilation, by clocks, we do so with reversible tools that simulates energy. Energy is subject to red and blue shift due to relativity. This is a source of confusion.

    Say we wanted to make an entropy based clock, so the tool used to measure time and time itself are on the same page. One such clock will be the dead fish clock. What we do is take a standard fish and leave it out on the counter. When it rots to a certain degree, as inferred by the smell, this will be defined as one unit of time. Like the flow of time, we cannot undo the rotting of the fish, since both reflects the universal direction of entropy. Also it would be hard to make a standard, but that is the nature of time. We can slow the rotting of the fish clock with refrigeration and freezing. With entropy clocks, temperature can slow and speed up the entropy clock ni a way that parallels the impact of relativity on energy clocks.
     
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  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But this apparent chaos does not exist if you apply the concept that time (duration) does not exist until it is "observed" by us.
    IMO, it is an abstraction of a form of "measurement" to keep things orderly for us.
    Yep, that's why we invented the science of the properties of time, which appears to be variable and not constant. Like a great river of wave forms, creating eddies and cross currents (wave interfere) and whirlpools (black holes?)

    The universal functions do not require an *invariable* (constant) flow of time within the Pilot Wave. The a priori condition for a dynamic function has to be a permittive condition also within the Pilot Wave (and may be without limits). No more, no less.

    But we can use probability to make educated approximate guesses of what the future will bring and when.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2016
  16. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    FORMS OF DURATION

    The forms of duration are contained in its definition. Duration is the permanence of things and theirs changes in reality (existence), in a certain place or state.

    The state is the situation in which a person or thing is in relation to changes that affect their condition. Examples of state are: movement, rest, matter, development, evolution, health, social class, marital, etc.

    The mathematical coordinates, the geographical coordinates and the address are examples of specific places.

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  17. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    The concept of time was developed to help early humans organize work and rituals. The sun rises in the East and sets in the West and then rises in the East. We call this one day. We coordinate waking, work and sleep around the day. The unit of time, called day, helps us stay on schedule. Each day is not exactly the same, like the flow of time. Yet, we repeat these rituals like time is cyclic. This helps with productivity.

    The clocks we use to measure time are cyclic. However, this is not how time behaves. The flow of time is unidirectional and does not repeat. If time was cyclic, we would be born, live, die and then be reborn, such as with reincarnation. We are modeling time, more like energy and waves since these cycle. Time is closer to entropy, because time does not cycle but moves only in one direction, like entropy.

    Entropy does not red shift. Energy will red shift. We measure the age of the universe based on the red shift of energy, with the cyclic nature of the red shifted energy not the way time behaves. Time does not cycle. There is a disconnect.

    I am pointing out the difference between an ancient tradition, that is still in use today, which does not simulate the flow of time, leading to confusion in terms of the assumed properties of time.

    As an analogy, say we decided to measure energy using a large chunk of matter. The large chunk of matter acts like particle because it is large, while energy is both a wave and particle. This will be used to simulate the disconnect that is the time tradition.

    If I apply pressure to the large chunk of matter, so its atomic structure changes, the amount of energy acquired by the matter can be different. Therefore, do we say that energy is pressure dependent, because our block (clock) demonstrates this change?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2016
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  18. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    In the measurement of time we use the recount for better manage of this magnitude. Imagine having to express time in seconds only.
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    It makes no difference what measure you use, it is purely arbitrary and dependent on what you are measuring.

    Throughout history we have used many standards of relative measurements. The list of weights and measures is long and arbitrarily specific to the type of event.. The associated time frames are just as arbitrary.

    Old native Americans used time measurement in terms like "three moons from now", and today we still use *time-zones*, each zone with its own time frame. These are all *relative* measurements and so is our current 24 hr day, except at the poles where one day or night may be several months and life itself is based on those recurring time frames (patterns).

    But standardization using some constants has allowed science to develop consistent maths for convenience and functionality. But, as Einstein said, "everything is relative". If that is true, then time itself is relative and arbitrary.

    You mention "seconds", but in reality should we count our time as 14.7 billion years + 2 months + 1 week + 3 days + 5 hours + 20 minutes + 53 seconds?

    It would be the same as measuring all distances in centimeters and all weights in grams. But these measurements are also relative. You cannot get away from relativity in a moving (ever changing) environment of spacetime..

    The old methods were so incompatible that science *adopted* the decimal system because it is *convenient* and affords us to create sets of measurement for different purposes.

    But no one has ever offered the true properties and measure of a unit of time.. It's impossible. Time is wholly dependent on the duration of the relative measurement of an action or a geometric coordinate and because these events are in constant change within the constantly changing expanding and contracting space, time associated with these conditions is completely relative and not a fixed constant, except that because time (duration/measurement) is always a result of *change* it always moves *forward in chronological order*

    A perfect example of the relativity of time can be found in Genesis. Ask yourself, how long was one of God's days before He created the solar system?
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
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  20. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    There is a difference between applied science and pure science. Pure science describes the universe as it is. Applied science, on the other hand, extrapolates pure science, to serve the needs of humans. The result may not be natural but will often be artificial. Artificial is not bad, but can often be better than natural, but it is not natural.

    An entropy clock, such as the dead fish clock, would not be practical, even if this time keeper was closer to pure science; nature of the arrow of time. How do you make all dead fish rot at the same rate, so everyone comes to work on time? Also since this is temperature dependent time speed up in the summer and slows in the winter. Also, some people will start to notice subtle differences in dead fish, due to entropy, which can give one an advantage in terms of office time management. The energy clock is much more consistent, for applied science needs, and the needs of the office.

    When we discuss the philosophy of time, we are not talking about changing the schedules of business and commerce. We are looking at time from the POV of pure science; nature as is and not how we wish it to be. We wish to make sure how we measure time, is consistent with how time behaves, so there is no applied wild card. This is not about which is more convenient for applied science. Pure science impacts other theories. Some pure science may actually be applied science, which is fine. This is subtle, but it is good to know.

    An osmotic clock is an example of a pure time clock, that can also be adapted as an applied science clock. An osmotic clock would be based on entropy. It can also be calibrated so it can be used as reliable time repeat mechanism. It would be interesting to take the osmotic clock into space, next to an energy based cyclic clock, to see what happens. If NASA wishes me to do this I am available. The experiment will determine the impact of GR on entropy to see if this corresponds to what we see time and energy clocks.

    An osmotic clock is based on an osmotic device, where two chambers of water are separated by a semi-permeable membrane; standard membrane. One side is pure water and the other side is water plus a dissolve solute, which can be anything, since only concentration matters. Osmosis is not dependent to the chemical makeup of the solute, just the concentration. The osmotic clock is driven on by the entropy of water.

    The unit of time will be how long it takes to build a given osmotic pressure; trigger a switch. This can be calibrated to one-second or any time unit. We can integrate two such units, into a work cycle, so the osmotic pressure of one, resets the other; switches back and forth like a cyclic clock. This is not perpetual motion, so the experiment will need to add extra work, via a third cycle.
     
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  21. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    OK.
     
  22. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    If you look at the arrow of time, that runs parallel to a human life, from birth to death, things do not repeat, exactly. Rather there is constant change in our bodies via the stages of life and DNA. Life is not cyclic except in some abstract sense.

    The human body replaces all the atoms in all its cells, every seven years. We superficially may appear to be the same person. However, seven years from now, we are totally renewed chemically. In a sense, there is a seven year repeat cycle to the human life. However, but it is not a repeating energy wave, but more like a spiral staircase.

    If we look at a spiral in 2-D; look at the helix from above, a cyclic process or wave, appears to repeat, every seven years, like an energy clock. But in 3-D reality, the spiral never repeats, due to movement in the z-axis; entropy. Cyclic energy clocks represent time as a 2-D process, whereas an entropy clock explains time as a 3-D process. This is more advanced, but it is more realistic based on the arrow of time.

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    If we look at the universal red shift, energy, over time, is actually following the path of a spiral. This is because the wavelength and frequency is changing with time; wavelength gets longer with time. The repeat cycle is getting longer and longer; center to perimeter. This can be attribute to the entropy increase implicit of expanding space-time.

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  23. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    I'm done imagining it now.
     
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