Does the law of Entropy affect human organism(I need experts here)?

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by Gravage, Dec 18, 2007.

  1. Gravage Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,241
    Hi, everybody!
    It has been over 2 years since I posted the last time here on these boards.
    Unfortunately I was extremely busy,right now I barely have time to post some of these questions:

    Do humans age and dies because of the law of the entropy?

    I read on some other forums several statements:

    "The energy exists to decrease local entropy, yes, but there is no reliable mechanism as of yet to do so at the cellular level. The level of entropy in a human being increases once they reach adulthood. Radiation, physical trauma, chemical degradation, all of these things are continuous examples of the increase in entropy in your 'local system' (a human body).
    Eventually, it becomes enough to cause a cessation of life. That is, the system breaks down to the point that it can no longer function as a cohesive sum."


    Telomeres. They are sort of caps at the end of DNA, and because you lose a bit of the end every time you replicate DNA due to how the mechanism works, they prevent you from losing useful DNA. For a while. I am not up on the current information, but from what I know, we still haven't figured out why they don't really get renewed. Cancer is a possible answer, though. You want the cell to die eventually, because as mutations accumulate, the chance of cancer increases greatly. A lot of cancer happens when mechanisms that cause a cell to kill itself fail. They tend to be activated in response to bad DNA damage-DOES THE LAW OF ENTROPY CAUSE THIS???

    I said that entropy increases in humans from the time they are adults. All life on earth is a result of increased complexity due to energetic bonding at some point.

    I don't think dying from old age is of any evolutionary benefit, other than in the most generic sense of creating a requirement for reproduction. It is the breakdown of cellular material over time that ultimately causes death from old age.

    Also. there is a fact that every atom we had as babies, doesn't exist anymore inside our bodies-IS THIS ANOTHER PROOF OF ENTROPY CAUSING OUR AGING AND DEATH PROCESSES?

    It's the free radicals that get you. They are VERY reactive, and damage the DNA of the cell they are in. DNA is very good at copying itself, so when it's damanged, it makes a copy to replace itself, but in the process it's telomer chain is reduced by one. When all the telomers are gone, the DNA cannot copy itself, and thus it cannot repair the free radical damange. (as an aside, you know all those vitamins that promote thier "antioxidant" properties? An antioxidant reduced the amount of free radicals by binding to them, hence thier supposed health benefit).

    Photosynthesis creates no free radicals, which is why plants and tree's can live a lot longer than people. But it also creates less than 1/2 the energy per input than metabolism, which is why plants and trees can't move. They never evolved muscles, because they couldn't make the energy to power them.

    At some point roughly 16-25 years into the process, it ceases growing and adding complexity, and moves into a 'maintenance' state. From that point forward, the system basically begins to break down. That is, the state of entropy in the system begins to increase, regardless of the amount of external energy you apply-IS THIS TRUE?

    If you had infinte telomers, your DNa could copy forever. You would no longer age, and your cells could continuously rebuild themselves, assuming you had enough food energy to do so-TRUE OR FALSE?

    The damage comes from internal sources as well. even competely shield from damaging external environmental factors, the process that powwers your body continually breaks it down-IS THIS BECAUSE OF THE LAW OF THE ENTROPY?

    DNA replication is not perfect. The ends (telomeres) get shorter with each copy, until eventually the DNA can't replicate any more. The end. There's no "reason." It's not a matter of "figuring it out."

    Aging and ultimate death are a result of the very reactions we are discussing raising entropy within the mitochondria of the cell where Krebs cycle is accomplished. If this were true, we would expect the mitochondria and mitochondrial DNA to be the first organelle damaged by this entropy in the aging process and this is exactly what we are seeing-IS THIS TRUE?


    Please any comments???
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

    Messages:
    2,828
    Yes.

    The causes of aging are not fully understood, so if you’re looking for precise explanations then you are bound to be disappointed. It is a very complex biological phenomenon. The general senescent phenotype is characteristic of each species. In humans the aging process is thought to be a combination of both genetics and environment. The genetic component is due to our cells being programmed to downregulate and die. Thus, we cannot escape aging regardless of how well we look after ourselves. The environmental component is due to damage to our DNA, proteins, cells and tissues. Over the course of a lifetime our repair mechanisms cannot completely reverse this damage, so it gradually accumulates and our bodies gradually degrade. This environmental component is why we can say that entropy plays a part in aging.

    One major theory sees our metabolism as the cause of our aging. According to this theory, aging is a by-product of normal metabolism; no mutations are required. Some of the oxygen atoms taken up by the mitochondria are reduced insufficiently to reactive oxygen species (ROS). ROS can oxidize and damage cell membranes, proteins, and nucleic acids.

    General wear-and-tear and genetic instability is another theory of aging and are among the oldest hypotheses proposed to account for the general senescent phenotype. As one gets older, small traumas to the body build up. Point mutations increase in number, and the efficiencies of the enzymes encoded by our genes decrease. Moreover, if a mutation occurred in a part of the protein synthetic apparatus, the cell would make a large percentage of faulty proteins. If mutations arose in the DNA-synthesizing enzymes, the rate of mutations would be expected to increase markedly.

    The mutation rate in mitochondria is many times faster than the nuclear DNA mutation rate. It is thought that mutations in mitochondria could (1) lead to defects in energy production, (2) lead to the production of ROS by faulty electron transport, and/or (3) induce apoptosis. Age-dependent declines in mitochondrial function are seen in many animals, including humans.

    In addition to environmental factors, there is also a genetic aging program -- several genes have been shown to affect aging. So as human life expectancy increases due to our increased ability to prevent and cure disease, we are still left with a general aging syndrome that is characteristic of our species. This is worth remembering because unless attention is paid to the genetic mechanisms controlling our aging syndrome, we risk ending up like Tithonios - the miserable wretch of Greek mythology to whom the gods awarded eternal life, but not eternal youth.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    54,036
    Entropy is a cause, but not the root cause. The root cause is evolution. Basically, we could have evolved bodies that lived forever, but it was unnecessary to the only thing a gene is selected for, to replicate itself.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

    Messages:
    2,828
    No, I see entropy as the root cause. Entropy is a fundamental law of nature and evolution has had to work around entropy and devise ways to counteract it.


    What makes you say that? If you are a carbon-based organic life form, then there is no way to avoid being damaged by the environment. As I’ve always said: “Living is bad for your health.” It can be argued that prokaryotic organisms that divide by binary fission (essentially) are immortal. But I find it hard to believe that a complex multicellular eukaryotic organism can evolve such that it is always able to repair all the environmental damage it sustains indefinitely. So even if our cells weren’t constrained by senescence, they would eventually die due to accumulated damage.
     
  8. Gravage Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,241

    I always knew that the law of entropy is one of the main laws of the nature that will never be be broken,but when it comes to human organism (and generally if we speak biological organisms) I completely confused.
    For example, I've somewhere read that the food we eat or water we drink us used in about 50%, which means 50% is used for usable work, and 50% is unused-entropy...

    But can anyone explain me how does the law of entropy affect human organism?
    DNA gets damaged but can be also repaired,however after 30 years of life DNA has lesser and lesser ability to regenerate itself-where does law of the entropy fit in here?

    Does it mean like DNA has less and less usable energy to repair/regenerate itself after time,but how is this possible if an biological (human) organism is an open system?

    Maybe I should ask this same questions on physics forum to ask their opinion about it?

    I most likely would.

    Thanks.
     
  9. Reiku Banned Banned

    Messages:
    11,238
    Yes, and no.
     
  10. Gravage Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,241
    Well, let's compare sun with DNA. Since sun loses its usable every second every second that means DNA who uses energy to repair itself also loses usable energy ever second or every other system (it doesn't matter if it's open or closed system).
     
  11. Reiku Banned Banned

    Messages:
    11,238
    I wasn't thinking of it in that way, but for some very strange reason, it has ''entangled'' relationships with what i had in mind.
     
  12. Gravage Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,241
    Ok,but could you explain me what did you mean with "yes and no"?
    I was hoping that you can explain this more thoughly (if you have time)?

    Thanks.
     
  13. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

    Messages:
    2,828
    Life is all about catabolism – building larger molecules from smaller ones. Cells need to build DNA from individual nucleotides, carbohydrates from individual sugars, proteins from individual amino acids, lipids from individual fatty acids. Entropy is trying to degrade these large macromolecular molecules. Building them from small individual monomer subunits and maintaining them requires the cell to expend energy in order to counter entropy.

    But, as we age, our DNA slowly accumulates mutations. General wear-and-tear and genetic instability is a long-standing theory of aging and are among the oldest hypotheses proposed to account for the general senescent phenotype. As one gets older, small traumas to the body build up. Point mutations increase in number, and the efficiencies of the enzymes encoded by our genes decrease. Moreover, if a mutation occurred in a part of the protein synthetic apparatus, the cell would make a large percentage of faulty proteins. If mutations arose in the DNA-synthesizing enzymes, the rate of mutations would be expected to increase markedly.

    So, we gradually lose the ability to counter entropy, and our bodies degenerate as we succumb to entropy. Eventually we degenerate to the point where we die. Take collagen as an example. Have you noticed how human skin changes as we age – it loses elasticity and strength. It’s because our skin gradually loses the ability to make and maintain collagen, the main structural protein of our bodies. Entropy.

    Hearts need to keep blood moving. Cells need to pump molecules across membranes against concentration gradients. Immune cells need to migrate through tissues to engulf pathogens. It all needs to be done against entropy. Due to the accumulation of mutations in our DNA and damage to our protein synthetic apparatus, damage to our mitochondria, damage to our membranes, damage to our neurons, etc etc etc, our bodies cannot keep doing all this forever.
     
  14. Gravage Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,241
    OK, you said:
    Entropy is trying to degrade these large macromolecular molecules. Building them from small individual monomer subunits and maintaining them requires the cell to expend energy in order to counter entropy.

    I think here is the point: You said that cell requires energy in order to counter entropy-that's ok.

    However,you must not that usable energy that cell uses to counter entropy is and cannot be 100% transformed into usable work/energy.

    As time passes, despite human organism uses matter and energy to decrease its own entropy, the usabile energy/work level of each cell to decrease entropy in human organism simply decreases-it's the way how entropy works.

    Basically,cells simply lose available/usable energy to counter entropy-but the question is why???
     
  15. BenTheMan Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,967
    I don't know if I agree with this---the second law only holds for an isolated system. We are certainly not isolated.
     
  16. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

    Messages:
    2,828
    Yes, that's a good point! Hmmmm, I'll have to re-evaluate.....

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Being a physicist, perhaps Ben The Man is better equipped to deal with this.
     
  17. Gravage Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,241
    I decided to post this on physics forums...
     
  18. Gravage Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,241
    Can you, please answer on my question for Hercules above, please?
     

Share This Page