Does Language Change How We Think?

Discussion in 'Linguistics' started by KilljoyKlown, Jun 10, 2013.

  1. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    A common misquote. It's "Possession is nine POINTS of the law." It goes back to a time when a person had to satisfy a certain number of legal points (somewhere from ten to twelve) in order to prove ownership of a disputed property. If he managed to satisfy nine of the ten (or twelve) points, in some jurisdictions that would have been satisfactory. This gave rise to the phrase "possession is nine points of the law." In other words, eight are not enough and ten are more than necessary.

    Admittedly, today it is often written "nine tenths," but since the maximum number could be twelve, this is a poor rendering.
     
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  3. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    There is a visual language which exists apart from spoken or written language. This visual language is a universal language. For example, I can bring a cat to show and tell, where there are students from all over the world. These students collectively speak say 100 languages and all have different words/sounds for the cat.

    But at the visual level, we all see the same thing (visual input is the same, regardless of language). There may be a hundred different audio inputs used to describe what they see (cultural human), but we all have one common visual input; collective human. Each person does not see something different, even though each will use a different audio characterization to represent what they see.

    The main advantage of the collective visual language is the internal speed at which we can process visual details. If you watched a hockey game you can't talk fast enough to keep up with all the details. The audio can only highlight in real time.

    The disadvantage of the collective human visual language, is we can't directly transfer internal visuals to others; thought transference. Everyone who see the cat, at the same time, understands we are all visualizing the same. But beyond that real time, it hard to transfer using only the visual connection. Cultural audio language is an intermediate step that can be used to transfer visualization. I can use language to describe what I saw allowing others to visualize within their mind's eye, like they are there.

    One thing with audio language, that is taboo in linguistic discussions ( I have tried many times) is lying and spin. You can't just trip out when you see the cat so it becomes a dog, visually. But audio is different and it allows us to trip out easier via lie and spin.

    Say I was selling a used car and I needed to transfer the universal visual of a perfect motor vehicle, even though it is a junk. I would see a junk if we were both looking at it as two mechanics. Instead I can use language to transfer the wrong visual. I would need to do a complex magic trick to fool you visually. But with audio it only takes a few breaths.

    Fictional writing is sort of like lying and spin, except the author tells the audience up front; this is not real but fiction. The audience knows this and the author will induce false visuals so one can have fun with the unique blends of visual language. When politicians do it, they don't tell you it is fiction. If you don't fact check the visuals, then you might assume this is an accurate transfer of the universal visual language. Language can distort the visual language but can periodically be used to accurately describe the universal imagery.

    I don't always use audio language when I create new ideas since it is too slow. A picture is worth a thousands words, so it is faster to use the visual language to move block data. But to transfer to others I need to translate visual to audio to induce the visual.
     
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  5. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Spoken language is a technology, invented around seventy thousand years ago. It uses a system of symbols which serve as abstractions of objects, actions, conditions, emotions, plans, etc., used for the communication of ideas.

    To simply point at something, or in some other way bring it to a person's attention, is communication, but it is not language because there is no abstraction. This type of communication certainly works; in fact for around 100,000 years we have been elaborating on it by developing visual art, with which we can bring something to a person's attention that does not necessarily exist in the real world. Dance is another form of visual communication. In both of these systems, abstraction is used, but the scope of the abstraction is small compared to the scope of abstraction we can produce and understand by using language.

    This is absolutely not true. There is a wealth of research proving that when two people look at a scene, even from an identical perspective such as a video recording, there is a tremendous difference in what they see. In other words, looking and seeing are two different things. Attorneys know and use this phenomenon in court trials. If you gather ten eyewitnesses to a crime or other event, you will get ten different accounts of what happened, many of which contain completely opposite accounts of the most important parts of the scene, at least for the purposes of determining guilt and innocence. Eyewitness testimony is thus nearly worthless in establishing truth, but our legal system is a hundred years out of date and refuses to recognize this.

    As I said, this statement is false. It is contradicted by both experimental and practical evidence.

    I don't understand what you mean by "taboo in linguistic discussions." Here on SciForums the linguistics "department" of this "academy" is tiny and only has a few participants, and the "professor" (yours truly) is not even a professional linguist with a strong academic background in the discipline, so the range of topics we discuss is quite limited. But this is hardly true in academic circles.

    And you're certainly welcome to start a discussion of these topics, if you have enough information and background to do them justice.

    This ancient cliche is only true in certain circumstances, when the topic of discussion is something concrete which can be easily presented visually. As civilization advances, we spend an increasing portion of our lives dealing entirely with abstractions.

    Just try using one picture to do the work of a thousand words when you're trying to explain the functions of a software system, the rules for income tax, the symptoms of ADHD, the conflict between Sunni and Shiite Muslims, or the physics and biology of aromatherapy.
     
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  7. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    I've actually begun to loathe the expression, simply because it is far too easy to succumb to emotional representation without background knowledge.
    Take your example above... it only takes one newspaper to publish a photo of a Sunni executing a Shiite (for the sake of example, and with particular reference to a famous Asian photo I won't bother posting) to have 8/10 readers immediately sympathetic to a cause without any real knowledge of it. Pictures are an appeal to emotion, a fact the media has been aware of for a very long time and have used to advantage.

    More Ot... I've read an article a year or two ago discussing the apparent success of Asian students in Australia compared to their locally-born counterparts. While there was more than one factor in play, the article determined that at least part of the reason was that multi-linguistic students have more avenues of approach to problem solving than they might have otherwise.
    It was a while ago, not going to try to track it down now.
     
  8. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I've said that many times.

    Unless you're a professional musician, sculptor, etc., 99% of your thoughts are formed in words. Therefore, it stands to reason that the set of words we have available (and the rules for their usage: grammar, syntax, etc.) will have a tremendous influence on how we shape those thoughts.

    If you have two languages at your disposal, you have the advantage of being able to examine the thoughts you form in one language, using the other language for a different perspective.

    By the standards of the major languages of Europe, English grammar is rather streamlined. But when I form a sentence in English and review it in Chinese, I'm always amazed at how many little inflections we're forced to pepper our sentences with. Masculine/feminine, present/past/future, singular/plural, indicative/conditional, nominative/genitive/accusative (pronouns only but we use a LOT of pronouns). In most cases those inflections aren't necessary because the distinction they clarify is already obvious from context.

    And then there are the articles: a/an/the. I call these "noise words" after discovering that Chinese (as well as most of the Slavic languages and many others) get along just fine without them.
    • In a few cases they clarify whether you're talking about any instance of the noun ("a man") versus a specific instance ("the man"); but other languages use numerals ("one man") and correlatives ("this man," "that man," "any man") to do the same job with even more clarity.
    • In far too many other cases, however, the article actually makes it possible for us to make English even more confusing than it already is. It allows one word to function as both a mass noun (mammals breathe air) and a countable noun (the air in Utah is very dry)--as well as a background setting (he flies through the air with the greatest of ease; I see sharks coming so get out of the water right now).
    I can examine my own thoughts before I write them (sometimes even before I say them), and I'm far from fluent in Chinese. For a person who's truly bilingual, this is a powerful asset!
     
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Again this is confusing the order of what comes first: thoughts or words. Thought precedes words, if some animals devoid of language can count, if deaf children not taught any sign language generate their own language, if yanomami can conceive of numbers greater then "one,two,many" yet have difficulty describing it because their language lacks the words then clearly thought precedes words, words do not control though, thought controls words! The interaction is of course more complex then that, yes words can help crystallize thinking, transmit it, give people thoughts they alone would have never thought off, but in general thought rules over words and only a little bit the inverse. Your not going to be able to create a "new speak" that manipulates people into being obedient they will revolt, even if they don't know have a word for revolt.
     
  10. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    Of course thought precedes words. However, language gives thought form and substance. The argument in play is that multiple languages give thought more direction than it might otherwise have.
     
  11. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Question: specific languages or just language in general?

    If specific language interaction can twist thought in ways other combinations don't that in favor of Sapir–Whorf hypothesis, if not then this is just a matter of language combinations allowing the user to more accurately express their thought. Tons of artificial language experiments have been done to try to control thought, most failing horribly.
     
  12. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    As the complexity increase there is divergence. But simple things remain converged. If I brought out a dog to show 1000 subjects, it is doubtful everyone will see a different animal, but rather all will see a dog. But as we increase the level of detail needed to be observed, audio language filters will bias the result. The photons that enters the eyes, going into the brain are the same for all; raw input data. It is how this raw data stream is filtered that will make it diverge for each person. Language helps to create this filter.

    If we take a group of 100 leading scientists, who are all experts in the same filed, and show them something in their field they are all experts in, the divergence is minimal; due to similar filters. They would all get excited if any one of them noticed a nuance out of place. In politics the language filter can make one see things that are not even there; basis for mud slinging.

    Say I was afraid of cats and someone brings out a cat. I may only see its fangs and claws and not notice the soft fir since my exceptions contain fear and I will object visuals of fear to satisfy expectations. Without language the filter is more transparent; natural. Without language, since there is no way to communicate anything unnatural, everyone sees the same. The divergence is a good litmus test on how misleading language can make the mind in terms of evaluating a visual input stream consistent to all.

    Hypnosis allows us to remove the language filters so we all can relate a more pure visual stream.
     
  13. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I don't agree. Thoughts and words appear in our minds simultaneously, and each feeds back into the other.
    But not very high. They can't comprehend the concept of one hundred, much less twelve billion or one googolplex.
    Helen Keller said that learning the tapping language that her guardian taught her greatly increased her understanding of the universe, and then when she learned Braille it was a quantum improvement over that. There were entire realms of nature and knowledge that she didn't even know existed until she learned the words pertaining to them and began to read about them.
    Your example certainly does not illustrate your point. I don't know how many numbers they have, but for the sake of argument lets say ten since the number of fingers is a common reference point for number systems. So sure, perhaps they can imagine the number twenty, and it always means the same number. But do you really think they can deal with forty, much less a hundred or a thousand? If there are ten of them and they kill forty wildebeest or harvest a hundred figs, will they really be able to determine that everyone can have exactly four wildebeest or ten figs?

    I'm sure someone has performed that experiment. This is your assertion, so please bring us some evidence to support it!

    Oh, and BTW, I'm positive that these people cannot develop arithmetic, much less mathematics. That certainly constrains their thoughts.

    Again, your example does not support your thesis. If the words one person speaks to us give us thoughts we would never have formulated on our own, and we each know dozens of people (at least) or hundreds (for the truly gregarious), that is one hell of a lot of new thoughts! What a tremendous expansion of our consciousness!

    That's one very strange and narrow example, because it speaks very strongly to emotion, not just thought. The inability of words to do this doesn't gainsay their other abilities.

    Besides, propaganda actually does work! It's commonly pointed out that electronic communication (radio) was the key technology that brought Hitler into power and convinced the German population that war was the only way to dig themselves out of the Great Depression. Well, war and the extermination of the Jews, but many Europeans had felt that way about the Jews since the Roman Era so we can't blame radio for that.

    Sure, if this is taking place in one of the more advanced nations where domestic dogs are an everyday sight, it's unlikely that anyone is going to mistake a dog for a deer or a cougar. But they might strongly disagree on the breed.

    And, now that you mention it, the Human Society in one of the Washington DC suburbs recently got a call from a citizen who complained about a dog that was being horribly mistreated. He was enclosed in a wire cage, open to the weather, in the middle of winter. An officer drove over to investigate, and discovered that it was a rabbit in a rabbit hutch. And with his thick coat and a nice dish of food he was quite content with his lodgings.

    But it also makes us easier to manipulate, so we should never agree to be hypnotized except by a trusted acquaintance, or in a public venue like a show in a theater. It's often said that hypnosis cannot make a faithful wife follow the orders of a nefarious hypnotist who tells her to undress and go to bed with him. But what it can do is make her believe him when he tells her that he is her husband!
     
  14. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    As the sample group who observe becomes composed of experts in dog breeds, there remains convergence; all see the same thing. If we start to add layman and people who know nothing about dogs to this group, we get divergence or narrowing convergence; dog.

    Say I taught a bunch of good students, misinformation about dog breeds and called a german shepherd a poodle and a poodle a terrier. They will "see" the correct visuals, but will use language to define what they see, just as they were taught. In their own mind, they see what is correct but will use language for the wrong word association in culture. The outsider could mistake this wrong label for them seeing a poodle when it is a german shepherd. But it is not the visual that is wrong but the words learned or understood.

    I know fathers, who have many children, and who will cycle through all the names when looking or talking about of one of them. He sees the correct child, but the accepted verbal tag does not stick properly so he cycle through all the names. He is not seeing all the faces of all his children like a changing hallucination. The visual is specific but the divergence occurs at the verbal.

    An interesting example was the sales pitch of "The Affordable HealthCare Act". These words were designed to make you visualize a healthcare path toward cheaper healthcare for all. But in reality, the costs have predictably gotten worse. This was a tactic that taught the great dame was a toy poodle to the clueless, who would not visually check reality to confirm language with visual. Instead they were induced by language to trip out visually, without a visual reality check, until it was too late to see visual reality. We need more accountability for out leaders who lie, so we can protect the clueless from themselves, since they can sink a ship and not know it.

    It is important to know the visual and audio can converge and diverge with visual naturally convergent.
     

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