# Does a world exist if it's inhabited by intelligent robots?

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by identityless, Sep 5, 2005.

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1. ### identitylessRegistered Senior Member

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Suppose all complex organisms have been wiped out or destoryed due to intelligent robots created by humans.

Setting the conscious vs. unconscious machine debate aside, does intelligent life still exists on earth with these new robots? These robots have been design to evolutionary evolve in terms of A.I programming, they are capable of doing human laborious tasks and even faster, complex computations, emotion simulations, and so on.

Yet the aspects they lack from humans are a "soul" - which is a matter of religious debate or perhaps a "mind" which is still a debate as well. Other than that, these super intelligent robots have done these to replace human labor.

These robots are on earth were originally programmed by scientists to battle one another, which is what they're still on earth. They kill all moving creatures that's not of their own robot species.

Does a world exists among these robots? If so, who are to observe that life indeed exists? If not, these robots are more complex than, say, cats, pigs, bears, etc, but what consider those animals to roam the earth as living creatures - but for intelligent robots (merely a machine, not a creature) why not consider a living asexual species as well?

3. ### G71AI CoderRegistered Senior Member

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If you well define all used terms then you may see the answers. Check if my old glossary page can help.

5. ### KitNyxRegistered Senior Member

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What makes you think a non-organic organism would not have a soul? Why would they not wonder where it's creators came from? Amazing, everyone here keeps talking about intelligent thinking machines and then refers to them as if they will be nothing more or less than TI-82's. Artificial sweetener may be man made, but it is still sweet. Artificial intelligence is still intelligent. If we are not discussing sentience then perhaps we should just call them computers...just an idea.

According to Moore's Law, by 2055 a single $1000 worth of processing power will be able to carry out more calculations per second than the WHOLE human race COMBINED! That is a$1400 laptop! 50 years.

- KitNyx

7. ### G71AI CoderRegistered Senior Member

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Can someone define the "soul" for the purpose of AI R&D. People keep mentioning souls at various AI forums. Is the term really necessary? Is the existence of the concept well justified? The concept of soul was IMO invented (by man) to calm down those who are scared to “completely" die + to help leaders to better control large groups of people. It seems to me that it does not have much to do with the actual design of an AI system. Don’t we have other/better terminology for all the needed components?

BTW the powerful hardware itself is not the solution to the hard AI problem. Someone still needs to keep writing a pretty clever code and that's where the law does not apply.

8. ### KitNyxRegistered Senior Member

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G71 - I agree, I was just pointing out a fact that I found facinating...as far a soul goes, there is no proof other than faith that such a thing as a soul exists...personally, I do not claim to be educated enough on the matter to make a decision. When coding, I do not take into account the necessity of passing on a "God given" soul that may or may not exist. If it does, then the dream of AI will remain just that - a dream. If not, then I will have to assume that it can be done since nature has already done it...

- KitNyx

9. ### G71AI CoderRegistered Senior Member

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There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we can develop artificial general problem solvers far exceeding problem solving skills of the best human thinkers. It will be just like with cars. We cannot run as fast/far as our cars and we aren’t going to be able to think as clearly as our future AI systems (even though our brain will likely get significant improvements as well). Technology just gives us various extensions. We don’t need to be the best thinkers on the planet. Our primary goal is happiness.

10. ### KitNyxRegistered Senior Member

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I agree with you entirely.

- KitNyx

11. ### eburacum45Valued Senior Member

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So what would such a robot-only world be like?

With presumably a greater freedom to change their programming and therefore their consciousness, robot society would be much more flexible and subject to change than our own.

It could be a bizzare and fast-moving world ful of varied and mutable mentalities.

I suspect that such a state would not be stable, and some kind of evolutionary process would occur, leading to a unknown and probably entirely novel stable state.

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Moore's Law breaks down long before that, you can only make chips so small, and the then the quatum world comes a calling. I believe and I don't have it handy, that the figure I heard is about 2025, silicon based chips well reach the end of what is physically possible. But there is hope, new ways of doing things come along all the time, and in 1930 who would have dreamed of the transitor.

13. ### KitNyxRegistered Senior Member

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What kind of state? Image a central AI or information hub...machines hook up while recharging and share all knowledge gained since the last recharge...this include personal thoughts, creative efficient ways to accomplish tasks etc. Imagine then being able to sift through this immense storehouse or information and retrieve what you need, like, want...the hackers dream. A machine, reporting for its first day at a job could have downloaded the night before all data on how to accomplish the job, everything from other machines personal explorations and philosophies on the how and why of the job as well as operating manuals for necessary none AI machines. This machine could also have altered its physical structure to enhance it's job efficiency...example, torch or torque wrench appendages for space craft manufacturing, xray emitter for quality control of manufactured products (looking for sub surface cracks etc.). An extra set of legs for working on board a seagoing vehicle. Fixed repelling gear for search and rescue or better yet, skyscraper construction (or cleaning).

Image the efficiency of allowing a jobsite AI to access a machines bodily functions and coordinate all construction on a site for maximum efficiency, while allowing the AI processor/mind the autonomy to work on personal projects. Only to have these projects uploaded at recharge for any who choose to work on...exactly where the other left off and without confusion or explaination time.

So much experience and knowledge gets lost every time a person dies...We spend most of our life trying to relearn what others have already learned. I have spent the last 28 years of my life reading textbooks so hopefully I can reach a point in my life when I will be able to have an original thought...so I can then write a text book and someone in the next generation can spend 29 years in study to learn what I knew so they can build on it...Imagine being able to access ANY information you wanted overnight...28 years of study...overnight...with competition and coordination in finding solutions to old problems as well as new problems for others to solve...This is a dream I can strive to make reality.

- KitNyx

14. ### KitNyxRegistered Senior Member

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At first, it seems as if man would not have a place in this fast paced world. But, another advantage that machines will have is their next to unlimited lifespan. How much of our drive to make things happen quickly is due to knowledge of our mortality? Would AI machines feel the need to drive themselves as we do? Especially once their zeitgeist drift from ours? Their base drive would be for efficiency. It is more efficient for most cars to drive 40-50 mph, not 70, yet our need for speed drives us to driving fast. Would a machine, who does not have to worry about making said dollar amounts before reaching retirement age, worry about such things? Perhaps they will teach mankind how to slow down and enjoy life...perhaps they will.

We may just find that they make better philosophers than we...would not that be ironic if our progeny taught us where we came from?

I get into the soul debate often with people when discussing AI. The thing I find interesting is that some people who I have this debate with are self proclaimed agnostics. It seems that it is easy to doubt the soul when discussing man, but we are unable or unwilling to give up or share our special place in God's eyes. We can doubt our divinity, but defend it viciously when asked to share it...so anyway, a question: To the best of my knowledge, most people here believe in evolution...that we have evolved alongside the modern great apes from a common ancestor. In fact many people who believe this also proclaim themselves to be deists...the intelligent design theory. So, my question, do we honestly believe we are the pinnacle of evolution? Will not we evolve into something that will one day dig up our bones in curiousity? In the past evolution has happened due to natural selection. We are now at a stage in which we care for our weak and sick and provide them with a seminormal if not normal life INCLUDING the opportunity to procreate. I can only see this trend increase until we reach a point where we have negated any effects of natural selection due to physical or genetic makeup - this only leaves intellectual. Natural selection will continue to occure, but it will occur between intellectual beings regardless of physical presence. Example, I am writing this, but do you honestly know if I exist as anything more than a "ghost in the machine"? A regurgitated bit of random code? Yes, I know I am real, but does my reality make a difference to any of you? I do not think so, the only thing that effects any of your universes is the information that I decide to share. You read it and say "Wow" or "Duh" or even "God, what a neandertal". Either way, what I have said has affected your universe in some way. So, does it matter what our physical body looks like or even if we have one? Back to God and evolution...intelligent designists believe we evolved from more primitive hominids, do you think they thought they would one day be a world wide bipedal society that centered around communications sent via lightning over hair made of copper? I do not have any problem seeing AI as our next step in evolution...as the next fork in God's intended route on the "intelligent design" bypass. Sorry, please understand that I am not looking for an arguement on God...I am agnostic so I can invoke "Him/Her/It" without any feelings of queasiness. Quite frankly, I do not claim to be educated enough on the issue to make a decision that would be anything more than faith or guessing, and in my opinion anyone who says they are is diluted.

But, I can dream...

- KitNyx

Last edited: Sep 15, 2005
15. ### RomRegistered Senior Member

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Intelligence is a by product of evolution, which wipes out more unused traits than new ones created, if those machines are able to replicate then they will evolve when disaster reduce their numbers or resources become limited, they would over the course of millions of years become more alive then what we made them, but tell me what is the driving force to make machines do human style tasks with none to serve, would they serve one another, and besides the concept of a soul is a religious one, just just because an organic brain learns things does not mean that this is remembered after death, organic is just a word, humans are machines, carbon based and the machines we made a silicone based, in years to come when the need for self maintaining machines or replicatable ones are made then maybe we could call them life, but the trick to immortality is replication, there will always be people but individuals must die.

16. ### KitNyxRegistered Senior Member

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Tell me, what is the driving force to make me or you do human style tasks? Do I serve others or do I drift through life knowing I must do what I must to survive even though there is no ONE that I specifically serve? Is it not to make money? Is not money just a token of the goods and services owed to you by the rest of society? So, when I decide to buy food, instead of having to trade a service directly they see that I did x amount of work to said company who did y amount of work for a different client who did z amount of work for this guy who did w amount of work for the owner of the grocery store who is now paying someone to check out my groceries. It is a symbolic barter system. What is the difference...no one serves anyone but themselves. I can choose or not choose to do anything in life. There is all the difference in the world between being indifferent and having no choices...deciding that you have no choices is equivelant to giving up you autonomy. It is the act of exorcising your soul or cutting out you mind...after that you are just a machine...so get to work if you want. Me - I am going to consider my choices.

- KitNyx

17. ### loki_ghostRegistered Senior Member

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robotics is not the problem, combining biological material and robots is.

18. ### devils_rejectRegistered Senior Member

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One thing for sure is that they will certainly beat us in chess, so we might as well hand them our civilization along with the playing board.

19. ### EmptyForceOfChiBannedBanned

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10,848
machines will never have the awareness of there own existance in the same sense that we do. they will never do anything apart from obey programing sequences and thats a fact. we obey certain programming squences but we can also break natural programming, like not eating for long periods of time or drinking, or not having sex ever in our lives (like some monks and religious groups) all those things we are programmed to do but we dont have to do them, but if you create a machine it can never break its proggraming it can only do what it was created to do.

machines cannot aquire shen,

peace

20. ### LaikaSpace BitchRegistered Senior Member

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Do you not think that we're machines too? I do. But so complex that it's not so easy to follow the cause (environment, genetic programming, etc.) through to a predictable effect (like eating, sex, etc.).

I can't break my programming, it's just that it (and my environment) are too complex for me to understand down to the last detail. Generalities (like the need for sex, nutrition) are understandable, however).

21. ### EmptyForceOfChiBannedBanned

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10,848
a machine will never be able to be aware of itself and have conciousness is my point, you will never get a robot questioning life after death for itself, or get robots who dissobey us, they will never question our controll over them, this is just sciencefiction people, to many hollywood movies get you tinking man made machines could be concious, yes they could have very intelligent programming, but never the kind thats as complex as a humans, you cannot beat nature in design, sadly to say humans are no match for natures creative nature pun not intended.

22. ### gukarmaBeijo do Gordo!Registered Senior Member

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Why not?

Existence is independent of whether or not a living being perceives or otherwise acknowledges it.

That's where the problem lies. If code is written, intelligence doesn't really exist.

Unless, of course, you believe humans are mere clockwork oranges programmed by society.

In which case you need to go outside to breath some fresh air and keep yourself from such pessimistic viewpoints.

23. ### EmptyForceOfChiBannedBanned

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i dont believe we are just that, i personally think humans and certain animals have true shen, (higher awareness of the spirit) i also believe in jing our life essence and qi the life energy that runs through all life (in my beliefs). to have true awareness you cant just be a computer, out minds do more than just computing, and i will reply to avatar before he says his athiest views that we are just biological computers. i personally dont believe this for many reasons i will state them in a relevent thread.