Do we roll the dice with salvation?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by stanleyg, Jul 15, 2006.

  1. Dreamwalker Whatever Valued Senior Member

    Chritianity is such a lame ass religion when it comes to salvation, go and read those fancy Ars (bene) Moriendi books from the middle ages, you just need to call on Jesus and totally trust him when it is your time to face judgment, for he died for all our sins, past, present and really, how can you gamble with salvation, it is so easy it ain't no fun at all.
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  3. purple_hairstreak My true colours clash Registered Senior Member

    And another religious kook joins the ranks!
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  5. Dreamwalker Whatever Valued Senior Member

    What? Who? Me?

    Damn, some of these days I will step so low and add *sarcasm* markers to the things I write.
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  7. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member


    But faith doesn't count for anything.

    What makes you think faith has any value?
  8. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    The biggest lie of the church is that salvation is an after death thing. Spiritual transformation happens in this life. There are enough examples in Buddhism (and other methods) for me to have faith in it, and I have enough personal experience to know that although it is a real phenomenon, it is almost never what people think it is. Therefore, your wager is a false premise. You can try it if you want as an experiment, there is nothing to lose.
  9. Lawdog Digging up old bones Registered Senior Member

    thats actually true, but Christianity is not a lame religion, it just has lame practitioners. These lame practitioners will have a glorious and worthy death and afterlife, exalted far beyond human comprehension. In your weakness you shall be useful to God.

    Once you start to see your own life as lame and turn to God, then you can be counted with these.
  10. Lawdog Digging up old bones Registered Senior Member

    If we are not saved from final and lasting destruction, then whats the use of 'being saved"? If Christ did not ressurect from the dead then our religion is in vain. It does not matter how much 'transformation" you get in this brief life. Might as well read a self-help book, its easier.
  11. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven was all around us, only we don't recognize it, and those that do will never experience death. I think this was more profound than sorting out the salt from the scum waiting to get into the afterlife party like some kind of glorified nightclub bouncer.
  12. Lawdog Digging up old bones Registered Senior Member

    What Our Lord said was that "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand" which means that it is very near. This must be understood as him refering to himself as the Kingdom, and simulataneously meaningt that he will return soon ( "is at hand" ) to establish his kingdom among men.

    Scripture also says that all men are appointed to die once. Jesus never said that men will never experience death in this life.

    The meaning has been twisted by bad translators
  13. Kawika Registered Member

    Salvation, (if you mean your immortal soul), is not a dice roll or any thing else. for a Christian, it means that accepting Jesus as your personal Savior and that you accept any and all changes the He will employ in the future.

    Let us assume that you have lived in an universe that is 180 degrees out of phase with ours. You have never heard of Jesus or any other part of Christianity. Your belief system (in my opinion) must have the following parts

    1. Treat all life as precious and do not take it with out absolute reason (this means that eating meat is not ammoral or immoral)

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    2. Treat the others as you would have them treat you

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    3. the taking of an innocent life (one that has not affected you in any manner and or form) is not only wrong, but also negative for the soul.

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    4. you adhere to your belief system
    5. That you attempt to (but do not use force) to have others believe your system - leave them alone if they refuse. (see number 2)

    these (in my opinion) are the important parts of salvation. Keeping your soul clean will lead to salvation.

    Since I favor Christianity, I will favor the belief that Jesus is Christ and the only way to get to God the Father is through Jesus Christ. (Jesus even said, "no one may see my Father unless he goes through me). Once you have accpeted Him, you then must follow Him.
    We humans are like diamonds with a fault. we will shine with Jesus. We will fail at times (that is the human condition). Some of us will fail and crack. Jesus is the glue that repairs that fatal crack. as long as we continue to accept Him, He will repair that crack and salvation is everpresent. If we refuse Him, then that crack becomes open and the danger of this fagile diamond cracking becomes a reality.

    The idea of Salvation (at least in Christianity) is simple. With Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, we have salvation and Jesus has promised, "in my Father's house there are many rooms" He makes it clear that an infinite number of rooms (salvation) exist and that we must go through Him to enter His Father's house.

    Other religions beleive in Karma, or similar actions (do bad in life and recieve bad)
    Some Asian monks will even sweep the tiniest insect away from thier path in order not to kill. Some will only eat vegetables. Some have to pray five times a day (to the East and adhere to the five principles of proper living)

    First, let us know the word salvation:
    As I understand it, it means to salvage or save. It probably originates from Latin. It is a powerful word that has been watered down too much (as other words have)
    Second, one must know the religious beleifs of that person.
    Third: one can not be salvaged or saved if one does not to let others live as they want. then, you become like the Muslums (who will kill or declare insane a Muslum who converts to Christianity)
    I will say that during the late 19th century and early 20th century, the U.S. did infact forcibly remove the Indian's religions and demand that they practice Christianity. This also happened when and where ever Christian Europeans went and colonized. This does not make this right. But, the difference between that time and now is that we Christians have learned that forcing people only creates a false belief. the Spanish proved that with the SW and meso American indians. They thought that they were saving souls, but the opposite was true. these indians did infact practice (in secret) thier religion.
    True salvalation must come from willfull and personal belief. it must originate from the person and the belief system that one holds. No one must use force to create a false salvation.
  14. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member


    Yes, the authors intended and hoped it meant "imminent", like nearly 2000 years ago. It didn't happen and there is no reason to believe that anything is going to happen in the enxt 2000 years either.
  15. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    I'm referring to the Gospel of Thomas, something LD no doubt rejects. I guess you could interpret whatever words you wish in whatever way.

    P) These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke
    and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down.

    1) And He said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these
    sayings will not experience death."

    Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
    in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
    say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.
    Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
    When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and
    you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living
    Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
    and it is you who are that poverty."

    5) Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which
    is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing
    hidden which will not become manifest."

    18) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."
    Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that
    you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the
    end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning;
    he will know the end and will not experience death."
  16. Lawdog Digging up old bones Registered Senior Member

    Of course I reject the Gospel of Thomas!
    I read it myself years ago, great story!
    Only one problem: Its GNOSTIC!
  17. Lawdog Digging up old bones Registered Senior Member

  18. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    ...taken from the Gospels? It is a gospel, just one that the founders of the church were uncomfortable with.

    It doesn't mean your body won't die, just that you will not experience it, probably since "the kingdom" means a profound state like enlightenment in which unity with God is realized. Jesus himself may have been influenced by the gnostics.
  19. Lawdog Digging up old bones Registered Senior Member

    Yes, the founders of the Church, including many Popes and Saints, saw no great contribution in that work. in their eyes, it had about as much trustworthiness as the National Inquirer.
  20. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    I don't care what they thought. They could give themselves fake titles all they want, the fact remains that they manipulated the diverse works of early Christianity to suit their own political ends. They were the spiritual mafioso. The arrogance of them thinking they had a mainline to the truth is exactly why the Protestant Reformation happened.
  21. stanleyg Cranky old fool Registered Senior Member

    Right, wrong or indifferent we play it safe everyday with things we treasure. When we buy a new home or vehicle the first thing we do is go buy an insurance policy. The reason is we don't want to take any chances of something going wrong or losing what we own.

    Christ purchased our salvation with a price. The price tag was his life. We own it same as we own our home or vehicle. The question is do we treasure our salvation more, less or as much as we do our worldly treasures? It cost more. It last longer. It has greater value. We don't have buy an insurance policy to cover it.

    Now, any person, who expects for us to believe that they treasure their salvation as much or more than their wordly treasures is going to treat it any differently than to play it safe.

    Making a choice about our after-life is a shot in the dark. We have to blindly choose who we need to trust. We can trust our own opinion, another person's opinion or God's word.

    Which is the safest choice? Our opinion is no good, because we aren't certain. The next person has the same amount of uncertainty. This leaves us with the final choice. We can take God's word and let it go at that.

    If we were to discover that an after-life is a true phenomenon, then how do you think God would view our choice to play it safe and take His word for our salvation?

    I think that God would be very pleased that we chose to take His word over our own opinion or another person's opinion. Maybe He may say "oh ye of little faith". At least I could have a reply that Mathew, John, Mark, Luke, Peter and John had little faith as well.

    Right, wrong or indifferent, I think God will say that I made the right choice which is more than He can say about either Adam or Eve.

    He may even look around and point out all the hypocrites going to hell, who said thay had faith, but didn't play it safe with their own salvation.

    On the other hand, if there isn't any such truth concerning an after-life, then it really won't matter anyway.

    Sir3 [1] Hear me your father, O children, and do thereafter, that ye may be safe.
  22. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member


    The myth has it that he was resurrected so nothing was lost. So I can’t see that this alleged salvation has any value. Now if the story had this character dying permanently then the death of a god would seem like a real price. As it is no price was paid since no life was lost.

    No it isn’t. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that an afterlife is possible or that souls exist or have any purpose.

    Or the total absence of evidence for gods or souls.

    Nonsense. There’s no reason to think such a thing might exist.

    Now if you could show that a god or a soul might be possible then it might be worth considering some of these religious fantasies as having an element of credibility. But until you can show any single scrap of evidence that your claims have any substance then all your speculations and suggestions are not worth anything.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2006
  23. iam Banned Banned

    Salvation is and designed for crooks. The scapegoating of 'jesus christ' is symbolic. There is no real accountability, you do as you please, you ask forgiveness and you are redeemed. Belief has precedence over works, though works are what makes the real difference. So others do the work as the believers slack off. That is exactly for the sociopathic who want thier cake and eat it too.

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