Do we need money?

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Jez, Mar 25, 2002.

  1. Jez Optimist Registered Senior Member

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    40
    Im working on a small text in school about the possibility of if a MODERN society would make it without no money?

    I know that these goals must have been achived in order to remove the money:

    1. The society can not be dependent of another one.
    2. The society has reached a level of technology that makes every citizen's living standard high enough for them to survive without working.

    What else has to have been achieved? And what problems do a society without money meet? I know that in STAR TREK there is no money, how have they done that? Please help me with your oppinions! They mean alot!
     
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  3. justagirl Registered Senior Member

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    I will offer my services for the advancement of science and any of you who want to see what it is like to live without money....please email me and I will forward you my address for your bank account.
     
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  5. Jez Optimist Registered Senior Member

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    That was not the answer I was looking for...
     
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  7. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    Jez this question is more philosophical than anything. Try looking into whether or not the very idea contradicts human nature.
     
  8. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    Years ago when I was interested in the idea of Anarchy, I came across mention of a small town somwhere around the edge of France or Spain. They dumepd formal government and currency, and bartered for everything, and thigns were worked out by discussion and concesus. This was around 90 years ago I think. Things were going along quite well, but then the Spanish government (I think it was them) bombed the crap out the place and levelled it.

    This is actually a rather big problem you've raised. A token economy (any economic system in which otherwise worthless tokens are given value equivalent to goods and services) is necessary in highly urbanised cultures. If you have densely populated cities full of people living from imported refridgerated food and existing as pure consumers while they slave away in offices all day, then those people need the token eceonomy (money) to survive. Unless you'd like them to be given free food, which means those poor farmers won't be able to maintain their farms, and the trains and ships and trucks carrying the food will quickly run out of fuel without that money.

    Is there a solution? Possibly. I'm told we live in the Information Age. I find it hard to keep track of all these Ages and such. But the point is, people need not any longer work in such tightly packed bunches in cities. Every office job in the world can now be done remotely. Well-paid executives could do their job from a remote farm in the wilds somewhere. The only thing required is further implementation of existing technologies, which of course means the companies would have to spend heaps of money.

    If modern technology was implemented as well as it could be, the only regions of dense population required would be those around factories and such where many people must work closely.

    All said and done, it seems to me that a token economy is more and more necessary the more densely paked we humans are. Spread us out a bit, and it becomes less necessary. Spreading us out more can be accomplished through better implementation of technology.

    Just a few ideas which I haven't fully formed yet, but I hope it gives you something to consider.
     
  9. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    8,616
    What about trade in stead of money? Don't know if it is still possible now-a-days. In earlier days it was a good solution, way back when there was no money invented yet.

    Anyway, I am willing to give my abilities to work for free. Money is the root of all evil. Humans kill for it. Money is a necessarry evil. I am for trading.

    No more pressure of the marketplace...!
     
  10. Porfiry Nomad Registered Senior Member

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    4,127
    How are you supposed to compare things like a chicken and an idea?

    Anyways, trade itself is not devoid of currency. Rather, one of the traded goods becomes a currency (or measurement) for the other. It's the same principle except money is a generalized form of currency.

    For example, if I give you twenty chickens (or twenty virgins) for the life of your first-born son, then chickens have become the currency. I'm presuming you're not going to give him to me for nothing.

    We'd need to devalue everything (including ideas) in order to be rid of money, in all its forms. This would essentially make us nihilists, and for some reason that's socially unacceptable (by definition, I think).

    No, humans are the root of all evil. Money is a human artifact and as such we are the root of whatever ethical consequences result. Or, if you believe in God, then you back things up a step and say that humans are a Godly artifact and consequently God is the root of all evil.
     
  11. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    Everyone has unique talents. Some can do things easily that are a real task for others. In that line of thought there are also those who have the neccessary tools and equipment to do a better job. Now you can go and do the job with the same material and make it look worse than someone with an appitude for such. You can trade to get it done or pay to get it done. Either way be it barter or be it money you trade something of value to someone else for what they have of value. Money has the property of circumventing three and four way trades. Pick your evil....
     
  12. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    8,616
    Oh you everlasting humans with your everlasting complaints! Nothing is good is it? I know money is a human artifact, it shouldn't be invented anyway. I get so sick of you people. Why can't you trade and keep the peace, put your thinking, argueable mind on hold and care!

    Always you have something to nag about. And the worst thing of all is that goddamn money of yours.

    A necessarry evil!! And I stay with it.

    No dreamers allowed! This human race has civilized itself! At what 'price'...?

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    Why do you have to compare things at equal value? Some have chickens, others have clothes they can make. For instance. What makes you the one to tell what is of more value? The chickens or the clothes? Because you can eat the chickens? You need to stay warm too. And there is not always a fire-place in the neighbourhood...

    (I quit with it already, no sense in this discussion. Discussion? Arguement...

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  13. Porfiry Nomad Registered Senior Member

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    LOL! Brilliant, Banshee.

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    Well, that's precisely the issue now isn't it. How *can* you rank objects if they're of an inherently different nature. Clearly you need some tertiary measurement value (money) and some reasonable (not perfect) heuristic to assign a value (the market, supply & demand).

    I'd like to know how it'd be done in your system, though. Sure, nothing would make me happier than giving a chicken to everyone who wants one, but if I've only got one chicken left and a hundred hungry villagers, I've got a problem on my hands.


    And what about 'social' currency (good deeds and the like). Is that also 'evil'??
     
  14. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    No, that is just what I mean! I am willing to give myself for free to work out a plan to do without money. You can use me freely to do whatever I can do. As far as my abilities go. I don't need the fucking money, I hate the whole system!

    Is it so good in the world now-a-days? There is a lot of poverty and a lot of richdom among humans (in money), no equality there. No, the money gets used for silly inventions like space flights in stead of helping out the poor and starving humans. People are greedy, they want always more.

    "No more turning away from the weak and the weary
    Is it only a Dream that there'll be no more turning away?"

    If there is only one chicken, well, then eat something different. Like vegetables and fruit which is available for free in Nature, assuming we don't have destroyed everything. Crops and corn you can grow. And Share!, learn to share what you have. Work together as one. Everyone has abiliries to work with. So Share! Don't compare! Be equal!

    And then we arrive at the point where some human always start to fight or gets sneaky. There I have to look for a solution, guess that's human nature.

    You know what, get everybody used to use some Pleasure Herb in their daily menu and there'll be no more fighting, hopefully no more sneaks too...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2002
  15. ismu ::phenomenon::. Registered Senior Member

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    Jez

    I think you should start by studying history of money. Why money become acceptable media for everyone to trade. Why ancient people can live without money. etc.

    ...But perhaps you did. So...

    Most people never satisfied for any high standard of living. It's seems there is no limit for human standard. Only for survive is not enough. You give a man a mountain of gold, he still want another mountain of gold. Human nature of passion is different than animal. Animal will satisfied with full stomach, safe shelter, and breed.
    Human never satisfied. That's why trade occurs. To fullfill never ending desires. Money developed to make trade easier and more acceptable to broad society.
    Money may be vanished if there is more advanced way to trade.
     
  16. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    4,888
    Banshee, you ask how we can put a value on things (like valueing chickens over clothing, for instance).

    How about if you work for 12 hours to make a shirt. And someone works 1 hour to make a pair of socks. Are you willing to trade one shirt straight up for one pair of socks? Are you willing to let the sock maker get more commodities than you? Are you willing to work harder than the sock maker to get the same amount of things?

    Most people are not.

    Most people wish to be rewarded equally for their work.

    If we could all just enjoy being equals and not demand fairness in society, it would be great. I for one, couldn't stand that. I know for a fact that I would not work my hardest if I knew that no matter how hard I worked I would get the same result. You and some others may be content in knowing that your fellow man would benefit from your work, but I don't see how this is a fair or just society. Why should someone who doesn't work at all get the same as someone who works hard?

    And I have to agree, man is the root of all evil. Money is just one of the many ways to bring about evil. Look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict going on right now, is that about money at it's core?
     
  17. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    No.
    Please explain why you think this is so.

    Peace.
     
  18. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    No I don't think it is, that's the point. Banshee said money is the root of all evil. I just wanted to point out one small example on how that statement is wrong.
     
  19. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    Ahhhh... different context, got it. Sorry to butt in.

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    Peace.
     
  20. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    Money is indeed an odd invention of mankind. As many of you have mentioned it is necessary to be able to create a fair system for trade. For instance:

    a goat costs 5 coins
    a bag of grain 3 coins
    six eggs 1 coin.

    I buy a goat either for 5 coins, or 1 bag of grain and 12 eggs, or 2 bags of grain and expect 6 eggs in change.

    This is all a very odd system, as from time to time you might have famines or feasts that increase the expense of the goat, eggs or grain.

    So man started bartering with it's first coinage system, rocks and shells. (Even clay shapes that had markings to signify the amount) It was to make things easier, and fairer.

    I could continue with the history lesson of Roman and Greek coins, and how provinces produced there own, but there is little point.

    What I can say is that now adays are evolved monetary system tends to work on a principle of "Stabilisation", where only so much capital is printed to keep the economy high and stop it from sinking. It's been seen in recent years amoung poorer countries, or countries that didn't properly finacially manage themselves that there whole economy has been forced into bankrupt states.

    This is usually caused by someone forcing the currency to be OVERPRINTED.

    Of course there are many other reasons why economies have to balance, for instance if I was to produce something to sell to the world market at too high a price, no one would buy it and the countries economy would suffer.

    To stop it suffering a balance is forged by the banks through money lending (APR) and pulling upon financial reserves it rights itself. (Of course the economy is either made far weaker, or too strong.

    As much as people suggest that money is the problem, it's not, the problem is with the people that have the greed to aquire it. To aquire amounts that far outway the justification that they need it.
     
  21. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    Tyler, I've stated in several threads: Religion and Money are the Root of all Evil! Guess you have to check out some older threads for that. You can use the search engine for older archives here at the Forums for that. good Luck!

    I see you are a nice, going along with the herd, consumer of this consumption society. With people like you, we won't get anywhere no. It's the change of attitude, don't you see? I can't care less how many hours someone have to spend to make one sock or one shirt. I'll do it myself if you want to and give it to you for free.

    Then there's at least one person who is willing to Share! Luckily I am not the only one. Perhaps the only one in this thread, not the only one living on Earth...

    Originally posted by Stryderunknown
    *As much as people suggest that money is the problem, it's not, the problem is with the people that have the greed to aquire it. To aquire amounts that far outway the justification that they need it.*

    Yep...!
     
  22. daktaklakpak God is irrelevant! Registered Senior Member

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    Money exists because we realize there are limits in these world. No body can own everything. So money is the best way to trade. Money can partially gone when we discover a unlimited energy source.
     
  23. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    Banshee: Consider it a fault if you wish, I can certainly see how you would, but I demand some level of fairness in society. I can not live with myself knowing that people who work far less or are much worse at their job deserve the same as everyone else.

    How is this fair? How is this just?

    Unlike you I do not see every baby as being born into the world deserving of the same as everyone else. I believe in this world, things are earned. Things are earned through hard work and perceveerance.
     

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