Do we have free will? (originally posted on Science & Society)

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Nobeliefs, Jan 16, 2013.

  1. Nobeliefs Registered Member

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    (I like to post this thread on Physics & Math because I want opinions from people with some background in Physics..)

    Most people think that consciousness implies control, but i dont find any good reason to think that way. There is no phenomena in the known universe that violates the action-reaction law (if im wrong, please let me know). If nothing in the universe violates that law, then we live in a deterministic universe in wich simple things evolve to form complex systems including our brains.

    Some people would say, "What about chaos?".. Well, chaotic systems are just very dificult to predict because of their complexity and sensibility to the variables, that includes the weather and our minds.

    So, everything (tons of evidence) indicates that we are just complex machines that generate a false sensation of free will..

    I think that everything will change when the first robotic machine became conscious. What do you think?

    What about the quantum universe?

    [video=youtube;Jint5kjoy6I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jint5kjoy6I[/video]

    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?133265-Do-we-have-free-will
     
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  3. elte Valued Senior Member

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    We are basically DNA-programmed entities. I'd say that is pretty far removed from being free.

    The particles that comprise us follow natural laws that we can't change, which I think is akin to what you're saying. That perspective indicates a lack of freedom as well.
     
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  5. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    I'm trying to develop an equation that produces a random number.

    So far I'm at x+1=y but got stuck on x.
     
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  7. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    That's absurd!! DNA programs what our body will be physically. It has nothing to do with determining how we make choices of action.
     
  8. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, we have free will. I have exercised by free will and decided to write that this is a stupid thread.
     
  9. OnlyMe Valued Senior Member

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    There has been some relatively recent research (with rat brains) that establishes that at least some portion of memory involves turning nuclear DNA sequences, in neurons in the brain, on and off. Since memory plays a large part in how decissions are made, we cannot rule out the role that nuclear DNA plays. It is safe to say that it is not the whole story. It is also not consistent with current research to say that DNA plays no role.

    On a separate, note, how any of this discussion is appropriate for the Physics & Math folder is beyond me.
     
  10. eram Sciengineer Valued Senior Member

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    If the universe is stochastic, then we are not bound to fate.

    Now define "will". What is it? Unless we can come up with a physical interpretation of "will", we can't discuss it here.
     
  11. Nobeliefs Registered Member

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    There are two things that determine ourselves, the enviroment and genetic information (DNA).. There is no evidence for something else.. It has no sense to say that DNA has nothing to do with decision making.. I think youre underestimating DNA.
     
  12. Nobeliefs Registered Member

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    Well, this topic is directly related to the implications of physical evidence, Physics is the fundamental science, everything is related.. Thats why Michio Kaku talks about it..
     
  13. Nobeliefs Registered Member

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    The question of the thread is clear, i think you should read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will#Physics
     
  14. elte Valued Senior Member

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    Others have touched upon some aspects of DNA's effect in their responses. Other aspects include that DNA is the instruction code that imprints instincts within our brains, and instincts are about the very opposite of free will, and as you've alluded to, DNA instructs the actual construction of the brain itself, and that influences personality and behavior.

    Some equate the ability to get to decisions and choices as free will, but free will is actually a term of religious origin (it was certainly stressed in Catechism instruction) implying sole, absolute self-responsibility for actions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  15. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Deceleration of what we will do?

    How do you prove what we will do is not determined by a computer, or "controller?" Faith would not permit. If we have a will, we have a faith. Can we identify such things in the hardwiring of the brain?

    Physical evidence of my will are abundant, how can you tell I had done it by will and not through another state of mind?

    Will can be shown through artwork and letters to one another from years past. We can make individual list of what we WILL do. Do you think there is an abstract state to the universe of pure will? I do.
     
  16. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Just because we know of some behaviors that are very much determined does not mean that we are justified in making a hasty generalization to all behavior. Just because instinct exists, it does not follow that that makes reason or choice determined. It is a straw man to say that anyone is claiming DNA and/or instinct play no role in behavior, but that is very far from being able affirm the false dilemma that such things must then determine all behavior.
     
  17. Mazulu Banned Banned

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    This is how you know you have free will. Use a coin toss to make some decisions. If you decide to ignore the coin toss and do whatever the hell you want, you have free will.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  18. Nobeliefs Registered Member

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    oh, that´s ridiculous! cant you think a little bit more?
     
  19. Götz Registered Member

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    Did you understand the question?

    Considering causality, cause and effect, do you think any particle (electrons, atoms, small molecules, proteins, cells, organs, tissue, etc.) in your body would not follow that principle in order to satisfy your desire for the existence of free will?
     
  20. prefiz Registered Senior Member

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    THE FINAL SELECTION EXPERIMENT: Let's say that beginning tomorrow morning when you first wake up you no longer have the ability to choose. This means you cannot choose to move your body whatsoever. You cannot choose to take in any fluids. You cannot choose to take in any nourishment. You cannot choose to relieve yourself, etc., etc.

    The outcome is obvious. The effect of a physical system to no longer make direct selections is certain death. We, myself included prior to conducting the Tempt Destiny experiment, have been guilty of making the assumption that selection is some sort of option, a freedom of will, when in fact selection is a fundamental necessity, not a philosophical option, to our very own physical existence.

    Selection is a true dichotomy. We have the ability to choose because we do not have the ability to not choose in order to exist.
     
  21. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    This is a very strange thread that is virtually nonesensical. The implication seems to be that since there are physical laws we do not have free will. In other words if I hit my hand with a hammer I do no have the free will to not feel pain. Which is absurd - I have the free will not to hit my hand with the hammer. I do not have the power to break physical laws, but within the confines of the physical laws I have free will.
     
  22. Götz Registered Member

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    Take a look at this experiment, published in Nature Neuroscience, 2008:

    Brain Scanners Can See Your Decisions Before You Make Them
    http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/04/mind_decision

    Naturally, we don't have such power to break natural laws, and we can apparently choose what to eat for breakfast. But all this can be an illusion. Our awareness is not in real time, it has a delay.
     
  23. Nobeliefs Registered Member

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    It seems to me that you don´t have enough scientific background or maybe you´re blinded by some cheap religious belief, maybe that´s why this thread is strange to you..

    At the level of atoms, molecular reactions, and biological processes (like metabolism, DNA replication, photosynthesis, and even the function of neurons) nothing violates cause and effect, in other words there is always causality... Free will implies that cause and effect is violated (if you don´t understand it, you should educate yourself before posting in this thread), so at wich point do you think that this happens, and why? We know that the mind is resposible of "decission making". Well, what is the mind ? ... In general terms, the mind is the result of complex processes ocurring in the brain, and we don´t undestand it YET because the brain is the most complex thing in the known universe!.. Nevertheless we know that the brain is the result of the evolution of simple biological systems that follow cause and effect...
     

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