Do prophets hallucinate?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by aaqucnaona, Dec 22, 2011.

  1. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,620
    I tried to make a logical examination of the whether prophets have revelations or are hallucinating. I have used the example of Prophet Muhammad because that's the one that comes to our minds when we talk about prophets. But this can be applied to all religious claims by all religious representatives.

    Ok. Lets examine the claim.
    First, there exists a supernatural part to our universe, transcendent but omnipresent, from which forces and things interfere with our world. This predicts inexplicable and forever unknowable things happen that cannot be explained by the counterclaim.
    A man in a cave is visited by one such 'thing' - an angel. The angel tells him a few things and he remembers it.
    He later somehow gets it on paper and we have the word of god.

    Lets examine the counterclaim.
    There is no supernatural component to the universe. All that is directly observable is all that is. So the prediction is that nothing should occur that cannot be explained with this claim in mind.

    Now lets test the event.
    If the claim is true, well that's that.
    But if the counterclaim is true, based on many thousands of years of observation of natural laws, we have a database of scientifc information, which covers, describes and explains all known observations. Accordingly,
    A man is in a cave. He is hungry, tired and deprived of normal sensations. In such states his biochemistry and neurobiology is very vulnerable to mistakes and problems in their functioning. We know the human mind to be very apt at making convincing illusions.

    Looking at the claims and the current knowledge as it applies to the event, it is more rational to believe he was hallucinating. It requires much less assumptions and has no external [to this event] data that is not in agreement with the current knowledge of the natural world.

    Since model 2, with the claim of naturalism, makes a better model in the given circumstances, I choose it to be the correct model to apply to this event and further conclude that this event does not give credence to claim no 1, of a supernature element to the universe.

    Hence, I think think prophets are likely to be hallucinating.

    What do you think?

    Ps. This is a part of my post [#154] on this thread:
    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=2879430#post2879430
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2011
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. wellwisher Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,160
    If you look at the human imagination, although the neurons follow the known laws of science, this neural matrix allows us to generate and process results which are not limited to these same laws of science. I can fly to the moon flapping my arms in the imagination. This flexible departure does not follow any know laws yet can be processed as an output in the imagination. This matrix output satisfies all the conditions associated with spiritual claims and therefore would be a good place to look. God is not limited to natural laws, cause and effect or probability just like the matrix of the imagination can generate.

    If you were walking down the road, you will pick up both conscious and subliminal data, with the subliminal data connected to the unconscious mind. Through hypnosis it can be demonstrated the unconscious can pick up more detail than the conscious mind. The reason is, the unconscious can process data at a much higher rate with a higher data density. When you throw a ball you only need to think a command line "throw a curve". The unconscious does all the data crunching. If you tried to over think, it will look less fluid. The conscious terminal does not have the same access to the CPU of the brain as the unconscious.

    If we combine unconscious data processing, based on the higher data density of subliminal data, with this outputting to the matrix of the imagination, we have all the conditions that are needed to define divine prophesy. The question becomes can such output be more progressive or futuristic than the best conscious perception? Prophesies is about future predictions based on subliminal trends that may not be conscious. They will become conscious but some time in the future.

    One way to answer this is to look at art or music. These creative processes also work through inspiration and imagination which amounts to the unconscious mind and imagination matrix. The results can fully assembled, such as a vision of an art work or the gist of a great song. These can also lead to classics such as Michelangelo's Art, which is almost timeless in its perfect characteristics.

    To me the unconscious can generate complex data organization based on higher subliminal data density and faster data processing, and then present this to conscious in the matrix of the imagination. The disruption of cause and effect, probability and even natural laws, common to the imagination output, can be interpreted in many ways especially if the output is an instant classic which speaks to the heart and mind of many people.

    The idea of a hallucination is misleading, since this word is always associated with a pathology. If the musician hears a classic song in his head, this could be an audio hallucination. If this leads a resonating result or number one hit, the same thing is not pathology.

    It is just unconscious access to the CPU, higher data density and quicker data processing leading to an organized output that reaches the matrix of the imagination, so there is no apparent cause and effect or probability to predict this exact song, in advance, even with all of science working at the same time. Yet it appears and may resonate for centuries since it speaks CPU to CPU. It often reaches people in subliminal and deep ways.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,160
    Waow, I wish if I was hallucinating too!

    Apparently that's a pretty good orgenized hallucination so all the prophets' stories of the 3 relegions (Islam, Christanity, Judaism) fit together and related.


    However, I think it would be irrelevant to discuss about the revelations and etc.. with an atheist, if you want to discuss that, you have to discuss the existence of God first, and if you finish of that part, then move to the next, and when if you finish about the part of the existance of God (wich it's not likely), you will still mostly say that God don't exist, so, you can't move to the next discussion, wich is the revelation, while you don't even beleive that God exists, because in that case, revelations doesnt exist.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!




    [off-topic, I just wanted to say it :If I was an atheist, I will think about it this way: I will beleive that God exists and etc.. and do good and etc... If God exists, that will be good for me (maybe after I die), if God don't exist, well, I didnt loose anything, I will just die, and that's it, so there's no point of trying to have the maximum fun in life and get exhausted or even fight for the right of atheism.
    I'm not atheist however

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    ]
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,160
    @wellwisher: well said!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  8. wellwisher Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,160
    This is not exactly true. If a musician said, God inspired him and he wrote a great song, the song is still real, even if his explanation cannot be proven. It would be irrational to say, God does not exist, therefore I do not hear that song playing at 105 db, since it can't exist in god does not exist. That is irrational.

    I look at the reality of the output and attempt to find a more acceptable way to explain the reality of the output. This is the middle ground.
     
  9. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,620
    Exactly.

    @Shadow.
    Hallucinations are not random. They are based on what we know. The prophets only need to be aware of the other religions and then their subconscoius data processing can generate quite real feeling thoughts.
     
  10. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,416
    Yep.

    The other day I stumbled across this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystical_psychosis.
    Most of my friends have brain cooties too...normal people can be so judgmental. And boring.
    So...someone I have been talking to online for about a year now had one of these due to bipolar disorder. Onset of manic psychosis, previously not diagnosed.
    But during the psychosis...he visited a being he experienced as God...and somehow saw that the universe is just, that those who have done evil are punished, in the end, that it all makes sense, and it will all be alright.
    Enough to make me wish I could go nuts in that direction...but we're all little crazy snowflakes....

    He says the person he used to be passed away as the result of this, and he has become a far gentler, kinder and wiser person.
    Although, one who takes his medications and keeps his illness in line.

    When he told me about this...I immediately thought of the shaman's journey into the spirit world...where the shaman is healed and brings back wisdom for others:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism
     
  11. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,620
    Thanks for those links.
    Btw, I wonder what pushed shadow's buttons. [Enough to make him recite pascal's wager followed by 'but I am not an athiest'.]
     
  12. rakovsky Registered Member

    Messages:
    56
    I think that this was a very weak starting point. First of all, there are many more Jews and Christians in the world than Muslims, and for us, Isaiah and Elijah are more likely to come to mind.

    In the case of Mohammed, it looks like his stories in the Quran occasionally at least match other known stories in the Middle East, like the story of the "Green Man", or the apocryphal Gospel of Barnabas.

    Further, many prophets in the Old Testament did not make their predictions on the basis of visions or hallucination. One possibility could be that they included God-inspired poets. So Hosea conceived of God's relationship to Israel as husband to wife and then could have made poems and predictions that flowed logically from this motif and theme.

    Still, I think you are making a good question, raising a good topic. I welcome you to my thread on prophecies:
    http://www.sciforums.com/threads/ho...stament-prophecies-and-how-do-we-know.158973/
     
  13. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,563
    Examining the internal logic of a prophet's claim is not very informative. Look, rather at the historical context, to whom the prophet communicated, and what were the subsequent results.

    Yes, some of them probably do hallucinate, with or without the aid of sacred plants. Some dream and some have visions after fasting, and some just make up the story most likely to accomplish their purpose - such as confederating the Arab tribes so they can't be picked off by the Christian armies. Or founding a church where you can have many wives - in Mecca or Utah, whichever. Or giving an army something to rally 'round after a series of defeats.
     
  14. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,571
    It didn't require either visions or hallucination (or rocket science) to figure out that the Assyrians were coming.
     
  15. timojin Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,685

    Have you read the book of Isaiah ?If you read you will find what you are denying and you will find prediction of Cyrus ( Kara ) the great restoring Jerusalem , probable about 300 years after prediction .
     
  16. timojin Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,685

    Why are saying that . they come invaded Israel , and come unto the walls of Jerusalem and the Assyrian king was deposed by Babylonian. 150 years later the destroyed Jerusalem
     
  17. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,563
    How does anyone living today know what inspired the prophets of ancient cultures?
    Obviously, many of the predictions we can read were proven true... or sort of true, or approximately analogous to events we know about.
    Partly because, throughout history, walls are demolished and rebuilt all the time; empires invade; rivers flood, etc. Those events were not difficult to foresee; didn't take a mushroom or a god to reveal. You can always match a chosen old prediction to a chosen old fact (or story... especially one from the same book).
    And partly because the ancient books we can read are the ones that have been saved - or written - or forged - by victors.
    We have no idea how many prediction were never written down, written and lost, or simply ignored because they related to events that the later compilers didn't consider significant.
     
  18. timojin Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,685
    So what do you say about Israel as a nation , were the Jews were scattered for 2000 years , and than ( predicted ) to return to their God given land to Abraham ?
     
  19. spidergoat Speak of the Devil Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    51,229
  20. spidergoat Speak of the Devil Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    51,229
    They had a strong cultural longing for a return to Israel. Finally they did it. No supernatural intervention required.
     
  21. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,563
    God gave nobody anything. The Jews beat up some smaller tribes and took their land; then some bigger tribe took it away from them, and they took it back - the border moving a bit after each war, then the Romans took it from everybody, and eventually the Brits and Americans defeated the Turks, stabbed their Arab allies in the back and plonked down in the middle of the oil-fields a people they didn't want in their own countries, that they figured would always be beholden for the opportunity to play political wedge.
    And 1600 or so years is quite a wide margin of error.

    And even if - if - one prediction happens to come more or less true, that just means you picked one of the few cherries in an orchard of chestnuts and lemons.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,919
    How should we interpret the prophesy in Relevations?
    Alex
     
  23. timojin Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,685
    Read your bible , that is your heritage , instead mickey mouse
     

Share This Page