Do black holes really exist in the real world or are they just virtual objects

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by pluto2, Oct 30, 2013.

  1. pluto2 Registered Senior Member

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    I admit that I'm probably not smart enough to tackle the complicated mathematical machinery of general relativity, black hole thermodynamics, quantum field theory in curved spacetime and quantum gravity because I was never very good at mathematics.

    Though I would still very much like to know whether black holes really exist in the real world or whether they are just virtual objects?
     
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  3. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Black holes are confirmed by observation to exist.

    Edit: And by the way, people often get hung up on what you can see with your eyes, forgetting that there is very little in scientific observation done directly with the eyes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2013
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    BHs as the name suggests are black. They cannot really be seen directly, but are confidently inferred by their effects on mass/energy and space/time that surround them.

    If BHs did not exist, then something even queerer would be lurking in the Universe to produce such effects, and none can come even close to describing anything that produces the effects that BHs do.

    Also worth noting that BHs of sorts, was theorised to exist in around the late 1800s by a fellow called John Mitchel, just by the application of Newtonian mechanics but it was pidgeon holed as too absurd.
     
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  7. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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  8. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    They fail because they're not supported by any empirical evidence. It's bullshit regardless what a scientific illiterate thinks. Why is bullshit so important to you? You a creationist?
     
  9. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

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    I first challenge you or anyone else on this forum to rigorously define the bolded term. You will find it is not easy.
     
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    "Exist " = Reality
    That which can be seen, touched, heard, smelt, inferred, by its effects on its surroundings.
     
  11. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

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    What do you mean by "can be"? Present tense only? Does Napoleon Bonaparte exist? What about, say, New Years 2013? Can that be seen, touched, smelt or inferred by its effects on its surroundings?
     
  12. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    You might find this interesting. There's quite a bit of indirect evidence based on what's happening to other objects in the suspected black holes vicinity. I'm going to link this observation made by the HST. The phenomena Joe Dolan and his team were looking for is 'the dying pulse train' predicted by GR. They found evidence for the GR predicted natural phenomena 'dying pulse train, or 'wink out', in the HST observation archive. Pretty cool. Considered to represent the first direct evidence for black holes. The following is a video reenactment of the observed event.

    http://imgsrc.hubblesite.org/hu/db/videos/hs-2001-03-a-low_mpeg.mpg

    And the text of a NASA news release on the discovery.

    http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/exotic/black-hole/2001/03/text/
     
  13. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Black holes makes sense in terms of GR and space-time. However, one thing that bothers me about the theory is if you look at the sun, gravity does indeed contracts space-time, but it also creates high pressure such that the zone of highest contraction in space-time (core) shows the highest frequencies (1/time) with respect to mass/energy transitions.

    The fusion in the core displays gamma rate time frequencies for its matter/energy transitions which are very fast, even though space-time is the most contracted and slowed. The two effects go in the opposite direction.

    If start at the perimeter of the sun, space-time is least contracted and mass/energy transitions are moderately fast and based on plasma. As we move to the center, space-time contracts as expected, but the frequency of mass/energy events speeds up due to pressure; gamma and fusion.

    If we extrapolate this, I would expect black holes to contract space-time to the limit (singularity), while also causing the mass/energy events to generate the highest possible limiting frequencies, to be consistent. Is this observed?
     
  14. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Napoleon Bonaparte certainly does exist, although presently in a different form from that which was inferred to be Napoleon Bonarparte before he died.
    Here we need to define living or life, as distinct from existence.


    New Years Eve 2013, is another story....This is the future, and involves a time aspect, which at this stage of our technological development, we cannot as yet infer its existence, which would be the day on which the Earth reached a certaint point in its orbit about the Sun.
     
  15. Tach Banned Banned

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    No, no one has observed word salads to date.
     
  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Or to put that more eloquently, BHs curve/warp space/time up to a point we call the Singularity, and a region where our laws and models then cease to describe or predict.
    It is in this region that the mass/energy has also been transformed to a density which we again are unable to describe.
    NOTE: Singularities are not in themselves Infinite, though they may lead to infinite quantities, such as infinite curvature and density.
     
  17. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

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    I think we all agree that a person will claim that New Year's Eve 2013 exists, but also that the event does not exist (yet...at the time of writing this post). What I'm trying to point out to you is that physical objects and events rely heavily on when they happen relative to the person making the proclamation of their existence.

    Therefore...a rigorous definition of existence would need to include simultaneity: the stipulation that there are portions of each respective timeline which is not in the other's past or future causal light cones; in other words, two points in spacetime which are space-like separated.

    Given the above, black holes only exist as abstract ideas in our minds. They do not exist. To claim that they do is equivalent to saying that New Year's Eve 2013, or any other event or object in the exclusive future or past, exists.
     
  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    BHs certainly do exist, [ and not as abstract things in our mind] in every sense of the word, and for the reasons I have already given.


    Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds.
    Attributed to Richard Feynman (1918-88) U.S. Physicist. Nobel Prize 1965.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2013
  19. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    Feynman was the man. LOL.
     
  20. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    I am making a prediction based on trends we can observe experimentally. Math allows one to create game engines so they need to be taken with a grain of salt when applied to something you can't do experimentally.

    Planets don't initiate fusion and gamma frequencies because the pressure due to gravity is not high enough. As we add mass and reach star level mass, the pressure allows these faster frequencies to appear in the areas of highest pressure. I have two data points and a line that I am extrapolating way out to black hole pressure.

    Another extrapolation is angular frequency will increase as density increases. This is another time aspect that is speeding up as GR and space-time are slowing time. Is this frequency observed?
     
  21. Pete It's not rocket surgery Moderator

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    Extended crackpot sidetrack moved to Alternative Theories: [thread=136935]Electric Universe[/thread]

    Wellwisher, you seem to be posting above your level. Much of what you say doesn't make sense.
    Please try to distinguish between your own original ideas and accepted science.
     
  22. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    He could certainly drum up a mean bongo beat!!

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  23. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

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    This why I asked for a complete definition of what it means to "exist". There is no black hole singularity in the past light cone of any observer in the universe; there is no black hole singularity which is finitely space-like separated by any observer in the universe. If you agree that New Years Eve 2013 does not "exist" as we sit here today (on Nov 4, 2013) then, by the same standards, black holes do not exist.

    Call it a technicality, but what about Science isn't?

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