Do atheists indocrinate their children into their belief system?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by S.A.M., Mar 23, 2008.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    What I did was handle your example in a way that more closely corresponded to the actual experiences under discussion (alluding to Saul on the road to Damascus, specifically). You are specifying too much in your example, and it assumes the point it argues - we are talking about experiences in which the person does not know what has happened to them, fundamentally. Their own belief is then mediated by their culture, which we are referring to as "hearsay".

    And unlike many other experiences, which can be repeated and checked out and investigated in person, this kind is almost completely dependent on that hearsay. Saul did not have a revelation that he was epileptic, nor could he have had one.

    Nor, if I had been Saul knocked down on the road to Damascus, could I have had a revelation of my epilepsy.
    And the fact is that was never the point, issue, or objection. The complaint has been that people, theists in particular and relevantly, expect me to take their beliefs seriously and treat them respectfully and allow for their significant possibility - the beliefs themselves, their content, not the person - due to the sincerity and strength with which they are held, regardless of circumstances otherwise. That is the argument from sincerity as I meet it, most commonly. You have suggested that atheists generally mistake this argument for another, a demand for belief. I don't, and neither do most other atheistic writers and people I meet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2008
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  3. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    Would you say that putting things in "simple, homely words" as opposed to "noble terms", can be an attempt to make something seem permanent and reliable, when in fact it's not?
     
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  5. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    Agreed. But by this, those theists impose on me their understanding of what respect is - and this, to me, is in effect the same as demanding me to believe them.
    Because I cannot simply respect something without agreeging with it; and if I am to agree with something, I need to believe it.
    I find the differentiation between the demand for respect and the demand for belief to be artificial.
     
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  7. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    Last edited: Apr 22, 2008
  8. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    True. But if one is unhappy and desperate, and the other person is offering something one wants or something that could save one - then one will likely take the other person's input seriously.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2008
  9. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    I was speaking directly to him and his category, not generalizing.
     
  10. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    "His category" - do you think his category of atheists are happy and satisfied?
     
  11. Myles Registered Senior Member

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    Do you think he gives a damn ? You are certainly not happy and satisfied. otherwise you would have stopped searching. Be warned, I know an 86-year old who has spent most of his life looking but appears to have found nothing because he is still seeking. Meantime he appears to have been wasting his life because he has little to show but endless quotations, many of which contradict eash other. Fortunately, he does not notice.

    Life is for living !
     
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    And your claim that it "could be based on experience, without hearsay " is based on what, exactly ?

    In the case of an unrepeatable, unique event of this kind, I mean.

    As I pointed out, Saul's experience on the road to Damascus could not possibly have been interpreted by him in any other way than by what we are calling hearsay. That would be so regardless of the interpretation he chose.

    Likewise with other experiences of this kind.
     
  13. superluminal . Registered Senior Member

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    If I forgot to add another qualifier, I apologise. Hearsay and/or personal experience.

    Neither one leaves any room for conscientious examination of evidence including repeatable observations, physical effects, or artifacts.

    As a third party, both of them are nothing more than "my say-so or that of another", or hearsay. So in any pragmatic discussion of the objective existence of god, testimony or personal experience is meaningless. Worse than useless, it's distracting.

    Clearly the existence of god is a subjective experience. One that, no matter how hard you try, you cannot prove to another with concrete evidence, hence the fundamental need for faith - so far. Got objective evidence? Bring it on, baby...
     
  14. CutsieMarie89 Zen Registered Senior Member

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    Everyone sure has a lot too say...
     
  15. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    I'm not sure what you mean
     
  16. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    There we are.

    For third parties. That is the key. Most of us allow ourselves various beliefs, in general, a good many, based on hearsay and personal experience.

    Faith you do not need. I have never understood faith. No evidence and no personal experience. Very odd.
     
  17. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    By 'his catergory' I meant that is was not tailored for a specific individual, as if I knew his psychology, but rather part of a response to a kind of argument a good number of individuals make. I have no idea if he is happy or satisfied. He is not satisfied with theists, but he may find this amusing for all I know. I could make some guesses, but I'd want to read more posts of his.
     
  18. Cannon Registered Senior Member

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    Don't worry, Athiest or not, were all in a 2000 year time loop nearing the end. So pray for your ass that your one of the 12 or living on the moon.
     
  19. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    I know nothing about Saul's experience so I don't care to speculate. One can bases one's beliefs on experience and not be able to prove it and yet be correctly interpreting the experience, sometimes when you are in agreement with a minority subculture, sometimes when you are sticking your neck out alone, sometimes when you are going along with the mass of humanity.

    And by the way, basing beliefs on personal experience and intuition is done by everyone. They tend to assume somehow that their beliefs are empirically based or logical because of the work of other people.
     
  20. sowhatifit'sdark Valued Senior Member

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    Myles, you have no idea what you are talking about. You do not know me. You are making assumptions. They are wrong. And your anecdotal evidence of something that you think relates to my life is, above, part of unasked for condescension.

    I am not sure what psychological need you have to make such assumptions, but as someone who thinks he is representing the scientific worldview, you should be embarassed.
     
  21. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    You mean your idea of living.
     
  22. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    I'll try to rephrase the whole issue:

    Sowhatifit'sdark and myself (although I'm not sure to what extent we are similar in this) have a problem with using "big words", "noble terminology".

    For example, I would never say to anyone who is close to me, a friend or relative, "How can I be of service to you?" or "I have come here to offer you my service". I would probably not even say "Is there anything I can do for you?" or "How can I help you?" Instead, if I figured the other person might need my help, I would stick around looking ready to pitch in, or try to circumvent the whole help offer by showing my interest in some other way, like asking questions about the problem at hand.

    It has been my experience that direct offers of help have been met with refusal and negativity. If my father is working on something and I see he could use another pair of hands - if I were to come to him and ask him "How can I help you?" he'd probably yell at me and send me away. Such has happened. But if I would stand there, interested, saying something like "How should I do this here?" the work would run smoothly.

    Also, when someone offers me help or service, I then feel obligated to consider myself helped or served - even if I actually was not. Many people in my life were also such that they thought a person is helped or served if the helper or servant declared it to be help or service.
    The notion of help or service is sometimes used so that the helper or servant can rightfully manipulate the receiver, whereby the receiver has no say in it, because he was the one who was lacking and who thus needed help or service.
    There have been people in my life who have, per their own claim, "helped" me, and who expected me to be forever grateful to them, to forever subdue myself to them, and of course to consider myself "saved" by them. And I didn't even ask them for help, and what they did for me was for the most part just another burden for me. I can't put into words how angry and sad this made me.


    I suppose we have quite different experiences with service, and the way we understand it.
     
  23. Myles Registered Senior Member

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    have you got a better one ?
     

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