Discussion: That sex without consent is always rape

Discussion in 'Formal debates' started by James R, Jul 8, 2008.

  1. angrybellsprout paultard since 2002 Registered Senior Member

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  3. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    would some please be the fire pokemon to abs being a bellsprout.
     
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  5. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    James mentioned the word bizarre when describing my case studies. Since I was arguing against an "always" I had to go to some lengths and to think outside of the box.

    But nothing is as bizarre as real life, so here is case study #10 (true story):

    Rape or casting out sex demons?: (I guess it depends on if you believe in sex demons, what I of course do)

    http://heartlandvalues.blogspot.com/2005/11/pastor-accused-of-bizarre-rapes.html

    "Welch said that after the sexual assault, the pastor gave the woman two wallet-size photographs of his daughters and told her that they were her sisters."
     
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  7. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    Speaking of another bizarre true story, the rape in this case is obvious, but not who committed the act:

    Case study #11: Split personality

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Minds_of_Billy_Milligan

    "William Stanley Milligan (born 1955), known as Billy Milligan, was the subject of a highly publicized court case in Ohio in the late 1970s. After having committed several felonies including armed robbery, he was arrested for three rapes on the Ohio State University campus. In the course of preparing his defense, psychologists determined that Milligan had Multiple Personality Disorder; 10 personalities were identified. Examination by psychiatrists suggested that two of Milligan's personalities had committed the crimes without the others being aware of it. Milligan pleaded insanity, the first diagnosed multiple to do so."

    " While he was in these hospitals, Milligan displayed 10 selves. Among these were Arthur, a prim and proper Englishman, Allen, a con artist and manipulator, Ragen Vadascovinich, a Yugoslavian communist who had committed the robberies in a kind of Robin Hood spirit, and Adalana, a 19-year-old lesbian who craved affection and who had supposedly committed the rapes."
     
  8. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    actually i herd of case of multiple personality disorder where one personality commited murder, aparently rather than exicuting the person they destroyed the offending personality. I dont know if it was a real case or an urban legand though
     
  9. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, yeah case study #12:

    Jack and Joan are lovers. Joan always had a weak heart since birth. One night while they were having red hot monkey sex, she gets a heartattack and dies, while Jack is inside her. Jack finishes the action after she died.

    Was it rape or just wraping it up? Jack claims he didn't realize she died....
     
  10. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    This appears to be little more than pointless semantics. Whether or not it is rape depends on how you define the word rape. If you define it to mean any sex without consent, then it's rape. If you define rape to mean forcing sex on someone despite their protests, then it’s not necessarily rape.
     
  11. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    That was my very first point and I think that's what ABS refers to as strawman by James...
     
  12. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    That sounds like a science fiction story that I read.
     
  13. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    possably, as i said i couldnt rember where i herd it so it could have been a fiction book
     
  14. lepustimidus Banned Banned

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    James R:
    Yes, it is. Added to which, it's inherently sexist. Why can't you grasp this very simple fact?

    Just for comparison: I wonder what sort of reaction I'd get from pussied whipped individuals such as yourself, Fraggle and Tiassa if I had generated a list with the title.

    "You are a slut if you..."

    and then listed a whole lot of bullshit reasons (eg. You are a slut if you have a boyfriend and fantasise about another man, You are a slut if you wear eye shadow while married), all of which only applied to females.

    No doubt I'd be accused of misogyny, and probably banned (again, most likely for two weeks), while you ignore the little fact that the rape list posted is blatant misandry. Because morons on this forum can't distinguish a well crafted piece of satire from the real deal. Because you're thin skinned idiots who feel the need to use censorship to enforce your own agenda.

    Oh, and yeah, I'm insulting you. Boo hoo. Ban away. If you were smart (instead of a retard) you might realize that increasing the length of my bans makes me care less, not more. I'm tired of chasing my tail on this bullshit, I'm tired of putting in any effort into authoring posts when I'm forced to deal with censorship, outright dishonesty and distortions. You're partially responsible for essentially weaning me off sciforums.

    See? You're at it again with the fucking strawman. That was never the issue here, James.

    But just to clarify, yes, I do think that sex without either explicit or implicit consent is rape. It's also clear that abs thinks the same, if you had bothered to read his posts instead of stereotyping him as a woman hater (he's not) and then extrapolating his beliefs from that axiom.

    To put it very clearly so that even someone as deliberately obtuse as you cannot ignore: If you re-read that sexist piece of shit rape list, you might just realize that many of the items listed are rape, despite implicit and/or explicit consent being given.

    Oh, and I repeat, they all only apply to males. Apparently rape isn't a gender neutral crime. It's a crime perpetrated by big mean males against poor innocent females.

    Misandry incarnate.

    So to summarise, James, so that there is no confusion between us.

    1. I do think that sex without either explicit or implicit consent is rape.

    2. My problems with the rape list are that:

    a. Many of the items listed are rape, despite implicit and/or explicit consent being given.

    b. The items listed only apply to males.

    3. I detest you because you are deliberately obtuse, grossly dishonest, willfully ignorant of the abuses committed by your fellow moderators, unable to detect obvious satire, operate under ridiculous double standards, and engage in cowardly censorship of views that may be contrary to your own. And then you act as though you have the moral highground.
     
  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    lepustimidus:

    I agree with you that the list is provocative. And yes, it is "sexist" in that it restricts itself to male rapists (no doubt to make it more punchy). I concede that point.

    Now, what about this?

    Does it occur to you that the term "pussy whipped" is inherently sexist? Eh?

    Hmmm... Turn that mirror on yourself for a moment.

    It's entirely up to you whether you want to stay or leave.

    I think you have a lot of growing up to do, lepustimidus. You're obviously intelligent, but right now you waste that intelligence on nonsense and hatred. I feel sorry for you; I hope you'll overcome your current deficiencies - here or elsewhere.

    I've read his posts. The last thread he started was about how women get off lightly for crimes such as rape because they are good looking. Hmm... No hatred of women there! Oh no.

    Which items?

    I'm glad. Now, see if you can get angrybellsprout to express the same opinion publically.

    You're entitled to your opinion, of course.
     
  16. lepustimidus Banned Banned

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    James R:
    Provocative? According to that list, 'nagging' a woman for sex and then doing the deed is rape. It is also rape if a woman drinks alcohol, and then has sex willingly. It is also rape if you have sex with a woman while asleep, even if she gives explicit consent beforehand (eg. Playboy Bunny and Asguard). It is also rape if you use the art of persuasion to convince a woman to have sex.

    In all of the above, the man may have obtained either implicit and/or explicit consent, yet the author classifies them as rape despite this. So no, the list isn't 'provocative'. It's bullshit. It's worse than bullshit, because females also use the tactics described above to obtain sex, yet they weren't condemned in the list. So not only is it bullshit, it's sexist bullshit.

    No, you don't concede the point, because you placed "sexist" in quotation marks, implying that you don't actually think that the list is really sexist.

    If you were honest and unbiased, you would take one look at that list and condemn it, as you have condemned myself and angrybellsprout for our supposedly sexist attitudes.

    Nope, I don't think it's sexist. It's just a term to describe men who have been conned by women into adopting an inferiority complex, who blame every last little thing on the male gender. Who believe in bullshit like male privilege, rape culture and the patriarchy. Ergo. 'Pussy whipped' essentially describes men who have been tricked into being sexist... against their own gender. Usually they do so because they are desperate for the approval of women, or they have been brainwashed by a anti-male establishment.

    If you knew what satire was, you would never have banned me for 7 days for misogyny. For Christ's sake, I even sent an email to this site after my ban to clarify exactly what I meant in my response to Orleander, and wasn't even dignified with a response, let alone an apology and ban reversal.

    You're right there. It's up to me as to whether I tow the party line, restrain myself from expressing my opinions freely, and endure your endless dishonesty and biased moderation.

    Pathetic. Your attempt at passive-aggressive behaviour is so transparent, even a blind two year old would pick it.

    Firstly, you'd need to link me to where he said that, because you have a long history of misrepresenting the views of others.

    Secondly, how is it hateful to point out a double standard? Women DO receive lesser sentences in comparison to men, especially when in comes to having sex with minors. That's common knowledge even to the pussywhipped, although they usually justify it by saying something along the lines of "Young boys might get exploited by that older woman, but deep down they love getting fucked by women twice (or even three times) their age. But young girls getting exploited by older men, OMG NATIONAL DISASTER WOMENZ HATE THE SEXX0RZ!"

    The ones where explicit and/or implicit consent may be given, yet the author claims that it is still rape.

    Start with these ones:

    He won't, because he likes people to actually think for themselves instead of being spoon fed every little thing. Personally, I don't have the patience for your bumbling.

    Of course. Now you know where you stand, James.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2008
  17. angrybellsprout paultard since 2002 Registered Senior Member

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    Funny how I even go as far as to link to one of my posts, and a thread where I consistantly state the same thing over and over again, but instead of attempting to talk about anything that I actually stated, James just runs as fast as he can back to his strawman.
     
  18. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    lepustimidus:

    If she doesn't want to have sex with you but grudgingly agrees because there is no other way to shut you up, then it's borderline rape. She didn't want sex. Her consent, if it exists, is half-hearted. What do you think?

    Well, no.

    If she says "Please feel free to have sex with me while I sleep", I don't see how that could be rape. But if she doesn't say that, chances are she is not consenting to your having sex with her while she sleeps. What do you think?

    There are many types of "persuasion", from dragging her into an alley and physically "persuading" her, to taking her to the Bahamas for a week long holiday and working on her to get her to have sex with you. Some kinds may be rape; others are not likely to be. What do you think?

    I suggest that the list would apply equally well if you replaced all occurrences of "her" with "him" and so on. What do you think?

    Not in anything more than the superficial use of pronouns, as noted above. Hence the quotation marks.

    Hmmm.... interesting. Do you imagine that I am "pussy whipped"? I'm sure you do. Do you think I have an inferiority complex ... really? As for male privilege, rape culture and patriarchy, let me ask you: why do you think that men still hold the majority of the highest-paid positions in companies, politics and other positions of power and influence? Natural superiority? Or what?

    It's just fine, but you and ABS continually point out all the supposed double standards that favour women, while at the same time being wilfully blind to all the double standards that favour men. Or do you actually imagine that men are not favoured? I mean, just how blinkered are you?

    I notice that many judges, for example, are men. What do you make of that? Anything?

    If she doesn't consent, then you are. What do you think?

    If she is so out of it she can't consent. What do you think?

    If she doesn't consent. What do you think?

    If she doesn't consent. What do you think?

    We've already covered this one above.

    Absolutely. How could you not be? What do you think?

    That's "If you drug her AND HAVE SEX WITH HER then you're a rapist." I'm sure you're smart enough to read this one in context. So, what do you think? Drugging somebody so you can have sex with them is just fine? (Also note that alcohol is a drug.)

    As above.

    Do you think consent is real and free in this case?

    Ditto. See Q13.

    See Q13 again.

    So, will you justify your opinions, or do an ABS?
     
  19. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    umm bells, Syzygys

    are you two going to post your summing up posts?
     
  20. buckybeam Registered Member

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    it seems that so much is being laid upon the definition of rape. what i would suggest is paying more attention the concept of consent. though legal definitions of what constitutes consent are abound. in everyday reality the concept of consent is some what shrouded.

    as to this debate, consent would be "the agreement between to possible sex partners". but as we all know nothing could be more further from the truth. i can see it now, your lying in bed and just before intercourse you pull out a form and say "i need you to sign this giving me consent to have sex with you at this time". yeah that's a real mood getter. so what is the "real" definition of consent? in reality consent would be mutual involvement in the act of having sexual relations. even though one of the parties has not given consent to having sex the mere reciprocation to sexual advances can be interpreted as giving consent even though no "real" consent has been given.

    i will add my own personal experience. im sure many guys have had something like this occur if they have engaged in "casual sex". you are in bed and both of you are totally naked and all over each other. when suddenly you "put it in her" and she says "no!"..... there was sex, there was no consent, and there wasn't rape.

    to sum up my thoughts i suggest that sex occurs with out "consent" in nearly every instance and rarely does one call it rape. no consent does not "always" mean rape.
     
  21. buckybeam Registered Member

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    buckybeam this was a formal debate between the 4 of us, you post has been moved to the atached disscussion thread
    w.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=82800&page=8


    oops sorry but.....

    holy smokes thats a long debate. looks like all four of ya gave up?
     
  22. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    no the debate ended. We reached the closing arguments and then the debate was closed. Admitedly bells and Syzygys gave up on there summing up posts but oh well
     
  23. Tnerb Banned Banned

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    Stupidest arguement ever made.

    Sex without consent is not always rape. If you're not consenting to sex then it is without a DOUBT not to be considered rape if say you grabbed your wife by the ass and started fucking her just to make a fool of yourself.

    Also, it would be understandable to realize that, in the first place, there is no reason for sex with consent in all conditions... Sex without consent, is entirely moral and just.
     

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